180. The Next Chapter of LGBTQ+ Storytelling (with Steven Rowley)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Steven Rowley

It's our job to consume stories about people whose lives don't look exactly like ours, because there's incredible value in a breadth of knowledge.

Episode Introduction (0:29)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay.

I'm Rob Loveless, and today I am a non-jaded gay because last night I had some friends over for a little get-together.

We had some drinks, got pizza, did face masks, and sang karaoke. It was so much fun, and I sang my little heart out, which is why I may be sounding a little hoarse today. But what can you do?

LGBTQ+ Storytelling (0:51)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, from singing karaoke to singing my praises for one of my favorite authors.

Today, I am so excited to have a very special guest join us to talk about the importance of authentic LGBTQ+ storytelling and how it's evolved over the years.

But before we get into it, you know the drill. Tarot time.

Tarot (1:10)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is The Star in reverse, which is a Major Arcana card. And this signifies a big chapter in our lives.

The Star is number 17 in the Major Arcana, and in numerology, we add double digits together. And eight is tied to strength, success, and power.

And if you think of turning the number eight on its side, it resembles the infinity sign, so it's a very energetic number and reminding us that our strength is always flowing through us.

Now, in traditional depictions of this card, it shows a woman who's pouring out two jugs of water with one of her feet on the land and the other in a pond.

And the elements of water and earth here remind us of the importance of being in touch with our emotions and also staying grounded.

And both water and earth are feminine energies, so this card is reminding us of the importance of looking within and making sure we're in touch with our intuition.

Now, while The Star is generally a very hopeful and healing card, we drew it in reverse, which is signaling we may be feeling disconnected or losing faith in our situation.

So, this card is urging us to look within, to reconnect with our passion and inspiration.

While that may not fix whatever situation we're in, it allows us to remember what's truly important to us so that we can make sure we're preparing to take strategic action that's in alignment with our wants and needs.

And while we may be faced with uncertainty or difficulties during this time, The Star reminds us of our inner strength that's constantly flowing through us.

While things may be hard right now, we have the strength to persevere. So, we need to be open to the lessons we're learning through this hardship, and remember to stay hopeful.

Guest Introduction (2:28)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to welcome our next guest.

He is a New York Times best-selling author whose works include The Guncle, The Guncle Abroad, The Celebrants, and so many other great novels.

Please welcome Steven Rowley. Hi, Steven.

Steven Rowley

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Rob Loveless

Glad to have you on. This is a really exciting episode for me. Love your books. The Guncle, Guncle Abroad, The Celebrants.

I actually got to meet you two summers ago now, when you were doing The Guncle Abroad tour through Philadelphia, so I'm glad we're able to connect again ahead of your new book, Take Me with You, coming out in May, which very excited to read.

Steven Rowley

Yes, I know I can't believe it's been two years already.

Rob Loveless

I know time flies, but I'm so glad to have you with us.

Like we said, we're going to be talking all about LGBTQ+ storytelling, why it's so important to capture those authentic queer stories, and how it's evolved over the years.

Before we get into that, though, can you just take a moment to introduce yourself to the listeners out there? Tell them all about you, how you identify, background, pronouns, all that fun stuff.

Steven Rowley

Sure. My name is Steven Rowley. I am a gay male. I've been out going on, wow, 30 plus years, which I can't believe. My pronouns are he/him and yeah.

Rob Loveless

And I like to ask all my guests today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Steven Rowley

What day is it today? Yeah, that's interesting.

You know, as we sort of dive into the new book a little bit, which is about long-term partnerships and long-term relationships, and sometimes I feel a little jaded now as I'm getting older.

But also, like, what a privilege, you know, to write about a queer relationship of 30 years plus in this new book.

Because when I came out in the early 1990s, I don't even know that I would live to see my 30th birthday. You know, that's, you know, we were losing so many wonderful, beautiful queer men.

And, you know, it was decades before marriage equality, or anything like that. It seemed like an impossibility in my lifetime. That's, you know, how quickly the culture has changed. So, I say jaded now.

But you know, honestly, if young me could look, you know, into the future and see like how far we have come and the great privilege it is to get older and to have long term relationships and new relationship models available to us, then I, you know, I would slap my jaded self across the face.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely, I love to hear that. And I agree, I think too, especially in the current moment we're in, it can feel very doom and gloom and be easy to be jaded.

But looking back and realizing how far we've come, not even just from Stonewall more than 50 years ago, but just in the past 30 years.

And obviously, there are struggles, but we've come such a long way.

Steven Rowley

We're survivors, yeah.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, I think that kind of helps us persevere and push onward, too. Like I said, I get the jadedness. It depends on the day, really.

Well, shifting gears into the episode, you've become one of the most recognizable voices in LGBTQ+ fiction and one of my favorite authors.

So, when you look at the literary landscape today, how do you think LGBTQ+ representation in fiction has evolved since you first started writing?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, I think back to the books that were available to me when I was a closeted teenager, or when I was first coming out in the early 1990s. And you know, they were a reflection of the time, right?

So, they were often stories about lonely characters leading isolated, oftentimes closeted existences.

And life was was, you know, lonely and sometimes short, whether that was from violence or disease or, you know, something like that.

So, I look at queer literature today, and it's, you know, it is a great joy to see the breadth of stories that are being told.

Not only through representation, you know, and different voices allowed to have a seat at the table, but that there's also a much more reflection of queer joy. And we don't even need queer joy.

We can have messy, you know, characters who screw up a lot of the times, you know, like, we don't have to have, like, sort of the perfect character.

There's enough stories out there now that it doesn't have to be doom and gloom or just joy. It can be an honest reflection of we are just people trying to get through the day, sometimes doing our best.

And so I, you know, I'm grateful that we, we take up space in, in the romance space, in, in, you know, Book Club fiction space.

You know, one of my picks was a Read with Jenna book club pick, you know, for the Today Show.

And the fact that we have George W Bush's daughter picking a queer love story as the, you know, as a book to herald on the Today Show, I think really shows like how far we've come.

But literary fiction, science fiction, there's, you know, romantasy. There's queer representation across the board, and I'm really grateful for it.

Rob Loveless

And to your point, when I came out in 2014, not that it's literature, but the two stories I knew were Brokeback Mountain or Queer as Folk, which are two very opposite ends of the spectrum.

And they lean in so hard to the tropes of either the grief aspect or just the over-crazed sex, you know, hookup culture aspect, which, I mean, both of those are part of the existence of, you know, queer lives, but there's so much more in between there. There's a ton of nuance.

Steven Rowley

Yeah, and not to be too down on everything, because I, you know, I'm very grateful for, like Armistead Maupin and Tales of the City, which taught me about the concept of found family, which is always so important in queer stories as well, because we're not always able to have relationships with our the families we were born into.

But the concept of found family being something that's so important to queer people. I also was introduced to through literature.

So, I don't want to say it was like all doom and gloom, but you know, I'm definitely grateful that publishing is something that is more diverse than a lot of other industries and entertainment industries, and I'm grateful to be a part of that.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And I think that's something you see throughout all your novels. There are, of course, hardship, there's the tough emotions, but it's never just dwelling in that. It's about moving on, kind of figuring out, finding the chosen family, and finding the joy again in life.

Would You Leave Everything Behind? (8:37)

Rob Loveless

And in your latest novel, Take Me with You, it opens with Jesse witnessing his husband of 30 years literally disappear in front of him.

So, what inspired that idea, and how did the image of someone watching a loved one disappear unlock the larger story for you?

Steven Rowley

Well, this stems from an argument that my husband and I have, and if my relationship is like others, maybe, maybe you all have this same argument, too.

But if a UFO showed up over your backyard and a beam of light shone down, and you had no time to pack, no time to discuss it, no time to think. Just, do you go or do you not go?

And my husband was always very much in the camp that you go, you go. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, am I not enough to stick around for? No goodbyes? Like what is happening?

And so that was an interesting sort of jumping off point for a novel, because I think, you know, every great novel starts with a question, a moral question, I think.

And this is a particularly complex one, because I do think the purpose of life is exploration, right? It would be morally defensible to go. That is, we want to know more. We want to know all there is to know.

Like that is, of course, you would have to go. But you can define exploration differently, different people can.

And so, you know, the idea of staying and getting to know one person, or studying the human condition, or barreling through sort of life here can also be filled with exploration and discovery.

And so, both choices, I think, are valid. But we open with a couple who've been together for 30 years, and one of them makes a choice to go, and one of them is left behind.

And the novel is totally told from the story perspective of the person left behind.

But what was interesting about that is, if someone did just disappear like that, how quickly before the world would start to close in on them?

You know, like, where is your husband? You know, wouldn't fingers be pointing at the one who stayed? And so, it gets complex, you know, funny, and life starts to unravel a bit from there.

Losing “We” and Finding “Me” (10:50)

Rob Loveless

And after Jesse's husband disappears, he's suddenly alone for the first time in his adult life, which I could imagine could result in a slight existential crisis.

So, with that in mind, how do you explore the themes of identity and crisis through Jesse's story?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, I mean, it was interesting to approach this from a queer lens, particularly because, again, marriage equality was not something I thought I would see in my lifetime, and therefore, it wasn't something I grew up idolizing or necessarily wanting for myself.

You know, my parents also divorced when I was a senior in high school, you know, not long before I came out.

So, there's sort of conflate the two events in my life, and I feel like, well, yeah, marriage, you don't want me? Well, I don't think it's that great of an institution, either.

So, it's interesting to approach this story through queer characters, where marriage was not something that was an automatic.

It wasn't something, you know, these characters of a certain age grew up expecting to be able to do. So, you actively have to opt in to this institution.

And so, it forces you to sort of think about, you know, the defining evolution of self, how to be in a partnership without losing that sense of self.

And who are you apart from a relationship that often defines you to other people?

And you know, it's definitely something I think about a lot, and I was in this situation where earlier this year, my husband had to go for a month to help his family out him.

I was suddenly alone, kind of living the plot of the book a little bit.

But it really made me think about, you know, who I am by myself, and how I behave, and where I find joy, and when I feel lonely, and having to redefine and recreate some routine for myself.

And that's very much what Jesse has to do.

Rob Loveless

And going off of what you said there, obviously, when you're with somebody, you know, not that you lose your identity, but you do kind of merge the identities together with this person.

In that instance, being gone for a month, like you said, it's what do I do now? You know, what are, what are my routines? What does my day-to-day look like?

And going with Jesse, after decades of being a we, he now has to navigate what it means to be alone.

Which, whether you're in a relationship or not, I think it's something that can be a very relatable feeling for many people in the LGBTQ+ community, even if their significant other didn't disappear in the middle of their Joshua Tree backyard.

So why do you think that might resonate so much with queer people?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, I mean, I do listen. I think it's to the benefit of relationships and whatever form that may take, even even friendships or, you know, familiar relationships of other kinds, whether it be siblings or with your parents or whatnot.

Always sort of taking a step back and remembering who you are and making room for yourself to grow in the ways that you need to, apart from partnership, I think is is hugely valuable and will lead to, you know, happier, happier selves.

Happier selves make happier couples, too. So, I do wish everyone had the opportunity to take a step back, in a way.

Now this is in a very dramatic fashion, because, you know, writing a novel requires some drama, I think.

But the underlying point is that I hope particularly romantic couples have the opportunity to choose themselves, to choose the relationship again and again and again.

But that means having a good sense of self to be able to make that choice and to show up for the partnership.

Balancing Heartbreak and Humor (14:30)

Rob Loveless

Like we were talking about the beginning of the episode, many LGBTQ+ storylines have historically been defined by loss or tragedy.

And while your novels typically explore loss, there's always that signature wit and a lot of heart that help the characters persevere.

So how do you approach balancing grief, mystery, and hope in Take Me with You?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, and you know, and humor too, which I balance with grief a lot in my in my work. And that's always the hardest thing to find, exactly what that right recipe is. And it's a little bit different for every book.

You know, I wrote a book called The Guncle, which won the Thurber Prize for American Humor, and suddenly I was like, you know, the comedic novelist.

And so that's a lot of pressure sometimes when telling a story to always, well, it'll be funny, right? The new book is going to be funny? And I think there will always be humor in and hope in my work.

But I do a final draft, my last pass through any of my manuscripts before it goes to my publisher, is almost a line-by-line.

I almost take it like surgically by nature, because if you, you know, if a chapter or a page or a scene has one too many jokes, it can definitely take the air out of what you're trying to say.

And conversely, if you go too far without giving the reader the opportunity to take a breath with a laugh, it can maybe, you know, taint your story too darkly.

And so, it's all, sometimes it's surgical, sometimes it's you know. Was it Coco Chanel who said, you know, like, look in the mirror before you leave the house and take off one thing?

Well, that's what I take off one joke before from any scene before I, I send it in. But it is that balance that is sort of like at the heart of what I do. But I think that's reflective of life, right?

You know, humor has always been my way through. It's always been, I think, a way through for queer people. There's always been joy, even in the darkest moments.

And so, I think that's very reflective of, you know, my gay experience.

Rob Loveless

And I think Truvy from Steel Magnolias says that laughter through tears is her favorite emotion.

Steven Rowley

I know we need a word for it, though, because I'm like, crafter, sounds terrible. Let's not. And then, like laughing and crying, like lying is already a word.

So now we need. I'm going to work on this. I'm going to come up with a better word for it. Because, yeah, absolutely, and I agree.

And those are the movies, you know, Steel Magnolias, Terms of Endearment, Beaches.

You know, these movies that I sort of grew up with, and they sort of very much informed what I love about storytelling, which is that balance of humor and tragedy and heart and hope.

And you know, I was telling someone, I always think of these as my favorite comedies. And they're like, wait, the one where the mom dies, or the daughter dies, or the best friend dies?

These are your favorite comedies?

And I'm like, well, okay, that's a little weird, if you put it like that, but yeah, they kind of are, because there is, at the end of the day, this resilience, you know, in these characters.

And I hope my characters have a similar, similar resilience.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And I think those show genuine experiences in those movies, too. Because in real life, you're not just laughing the whole time. You're not just crying the whole time.

Usually, it's a blend, so it really reflects in that message. I think those feelings really hit personally, because you can relate to it so much.

Steven Rowley

Yeah, and look, humor changes at times, too. You know, in dark moments, that might be gallows humor. It might be self-deprecating humor. It might be aimed inwards. It might be snark, you know?

But, but also, you know, it's always kind of there lurking under the surface for me anyway.

And I think that's, that's what's fun for me to write on the page and hopefully fun for readers to to consume.

From Tragedy to Nuance in LGBTQ+ Media (18:12)

Rob Loveless

And while we're on the topic of movies, I was recently rewatching Bros with Billy Eichner and Luke MacFarlane. And this one part really jumped out at me.

His character is referencing the movies Philadelphia, Moonlight, and Brokeback Mountain and says, "Happy endings don't win Oscars. Straight people love seeing us miserable."

Now, of course, those are iconic movies where the LGBTQ+ characters experience tragic events at the end, ranging from heartbreak to death.

But in recent years, we've seen movies, books, and TV shows that are challenging the narrative and creating more nuanced storylines, including Take Me with You, which, again, deals with estrangement, aging, and chosen family.

So, with that in mind, how do you think LGBTQ+ literature is shifting to reflect these realities?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, another favorite line of mine from Bros was he was complaining like we had AIDS, you had Glee, you know, to a younger generation, and that was the difference.

And, you know, that's a really snarky line.

However, you know, really, for the first time in my past couple books, I've been exploring sort of aging, you know, as a gay man, you know, particularly in my age, which is now 50 plus.

But again, I don't know that I ever imagined myself living to this age. I have been robbed of many queer elders, the generation, kind of immediately above mine.

You know, so many of these beautiful voices are are missing.

And you know, I could, you know, bemoan getting older, or try to lie about my age, but I don't do that because I recognize what a privilege it is to get older.

But I am also sort of forging, you know, it's a little bit, it's a little bit of a mystery to me. I don't have, you know, as many examples of aging gracefully in the gay community as as we all deserve.

And so, I guess I'm trying to be that example a little bit. But this is a character. I mean, this is a book. You know, Take Me with You about characters in their in their mid to late 50s.

And so, it is sort of reflective of a generation of gay men who maybe didn't think that this age was was coming, and so they don't exactly know what's coming next, whether that be, you know, a beam of light coming down from the sky or not.

A New Era of Queer Narratives (20:22)

Rob Loveless

And I think going off of that theme of aging in the queer community is something that more people, there's more of a hunger to see that representation.

I know last year we had Mid-Century Modern, which I was very sad to see that canceled, but I think that was one of the more recent takes on looking at chosen family, as you know, not the 20 or 30-year-old, but somebody you know, middle-aged and up, just aging with friends and chosen family in the queer community.

So, going off of that, do you see, take me with you and your work in general as part of the broader movement toward LGBTQ+ storytelling that isn't necessarily about being accepted, but actually being understood by that chosen family?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, it would be disingenuous of me to write a coming out story, in a way.

There are, you know, plenty of coming out stories available, particularly about liberal, middle to upper-class, white guys, where the stakes are kind of low, and you know, everything's going to be okay.

I would like to hand the torch of the coming out story to younger people, more diverse people. I'd love to see, you know, Native American coming out stories, a Muslim coming out story.

You know, there's, there's still, that's still such an important genre, but at my age, I don't need to be the one writing them. I want young people to have their say and what it's like coming out now.

So that, yeah, leaves me with a different range of life experiences to write about, and that's often people who have been out, who are finding their way through a changing world and are trying to do their best just to just to get through.

And that's, you know, my work is not always the most plot-heavy. I don't write murder mystery, although there is a little mystery at the heart of this new book. I don't, you know, I don't write thrillers.

I don't write heavily plotted stuff, because my favorite thing to do is just create these characters and put them in a room together and see how they relate, because that's what I love doing with, you know, with people.

And one of the great joys of being my age is I have friends, you know, 25, 30 years younger, and I have friends 25, 30 years older as well.

And there's great value in all of those relationships. So hopefully that's again, reflective on the page.

Why Queer Stories Matter (22:22)

Rob Loveless

And shifting gears a little bit, and I try not to go too deep into the politics, because I know it can be a very dark, depressing time.

But currently, right now, we are living in a time where it feels increasingly difficult to be understood, let alone accepted.

As we're seeing LGBTQ+ books in history being challenged or erased, why is it so important for the LGBTQ+ community to be storytellers, whether they're a published author or an everyday person sharing their lived experience?

Steven Rowley

Listen, you know, I had mentioned earlier, I didn't expect to see marriage equality in my lifetime, but the reason that the culture changed so quickly is because many of us were granted the opportunity to tell our stories.

And it's very hard, or it's should be harder, to deny someone their basic humanity once you have read their story, or seen their story, or walked in their shoes a bit.

And and so storytelling, you know, I don't underestimate the value, you know, or the importance of that has had in shifting the culture as quickly as it did.

Now, when culture changes quickly, there's always going to be, you know, a precipitous backslide, and want to stop that change at all costs. And I say the culture has changed.

It's gotten better for white, cisgender male, gay men like myself, but it certainly hasn't gotten, you know, it's gotten almost a lot worse for our trans brothers and sisters.

And so, I think it's not only important for someone who has gained some visibility, like I have to continue to tell stories, but to also use my voice to lift up other authors under our beautifully diverse umbrella.

Because I just I don't trust anyone who is willing to grab power by standing on the necks of the most vulnerable people in our community to get it.

Never, ever, ever trust anyone with power who's willing to grab it that way. And so, we will continue to tell our stories and lift up stories and herald the importance of these stories as long as we can.

Lessons from Take Me with You (24:21)

Rob Loveless

What kinds of conversations are you hoping Take Me with You sparks among readers?

Steven Rowley

Oh, goodness, I do hope it sparks a conversation about aging, the value of our relationships, different relationship models.

I think one of the great joys in my life also has been, you know, when I came out, because marriage was not something that was available to me, I didn't imagine parenthood for myself.

And I'm not a parent, you know. And maybe that was a lack of imagination on my part, but it just didn't seem possible, you know. And I certainly didn't have visible examples of it.

And so, I think, you know, the entire societal expectation of what my life should be was lifted off of my shoulders, and because of that, I got to invent a life that brought me joy.

And you know, it's great that we have marriage equality as long as we do. However, you know, and I see a lot of younger gay couples now having and raising children, and that's really beautiful, too.

But I don't want to lose that sense of freedom, you know, particularly that queer people should have to create lives that work for them.

You know, I don't want to, I don't want a younger generation, because we have gained these rights to automatically fall back under that societal pressure.

These are options that are available to people, but I wish everyone felt that complete freedom to invent a life for themselves that brings them the most joy.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And for readers who might be feeling stuck in their own lives or relationships, what do you hope Jesse's story offers them?

Steven Rowley

Yeah, then take a step back for a moment. You know, if that means spending some time alone, that's one option. But, you know, it could just be like taking some time to read books.

You know, it's our job to consume stories about people whose lives don't look exactly like ours, because there's incredible value in, you know, a breadth of knowledge.

So, it might just, it might be taking some time to yourself, it might be just listening to other stories. It might be, you know, a radical reinvention of your life.

But I am so grateful that I have this job, you know, and I'm particularly grateful because I was in my 40s when I published for the first time.

I always dreamed of being someone who went to the Iowa Writers Workshop or something, you know, some prestigious program, and got a headline-making publishing deal at 25 or something.

That certainly was not my experience. You know, I struggled for decades to get where I am today.

So, I'm grateful for that, but now that I have this job, I'm incredibly thankful that a part of it is really spending some time thinking about the human condition, right? That's part of my job every day.

And so many people are struggling to make it through the end of a day, whether they've got a family and your young kids buying for their attention, or they're working three jobs just to get through, right?

There's no time to think about the more sort of existential questions or our great or about our greater place in the world. And I'm incredibly thankful that I get to do that as part of my job.

But man, if people can find five minutes of the day to sort of think about where they fit into the sort of greater context of the fabric of of, you know, this world.

You know you don't have to leave this world on a UFO. You don't have to go off to the skies and hopefully find some better answer.

There are good answers here, but everybody needs a little more room to breathe, to contemplate that.

Episode Closing (28:01)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, The Star in reverse. Again, this card is usually full of hope and healing, emphasizing a balance of our emotions while staying grounded.

However, the reverse meaning is suggesting we may be feeling disconnected or losing faith in our situation.

So, we need to channel the reflective nature of this card to look within and reconnect with our passion and inspiration and trust our intuition.

And The Star also reminds us that we're stronger than we know, with our inner strength always flowing through us.

Just like we talked about today, our community has shown so much resilience and perseverance in the face of adversity.

And part of our collective strength in pushing forward for progress has been shaped by our ability to share our lived experiences through storytelling.

Like Steven talked about, humor has always been a tool for the LGBTQ+ community.

And for himself, personally, humor has been a way to explore queer identity and fiction while navigating heavier topics, including heartbreak and loss, without succumbing to grief.

His work shows the importance of chosen family, finding those people who understand you, and having the freedom to live as a queer person.

And just like The Star, the characters in Steven's novels are reminded of their inner strengths that helps them overcome their hardships and work toward a more hopeful future.

And this theme is particularly important in today's current political landscape.

We will get through these tough times as long as we continue to have hope and embrace the importance of community and chosen family.

And regardless of where we're at, it's important that we all remain storytellers to ensure queer voices and experiences are not only heard but uplifted.

Connect with Steven (29:25)

Rob Loveless

Well, Steven, thank you so much for joining today. This has been such a great episode.

Personally, I'm very excited to have you on just because, like I said, one of my favorite authors. But I'm so glad to be able to share this information with all the listeners out there.

As we're coming to the end of this episode, can you tell everyone where they can connect with you and purchase Take Me with You?

Steven Rowley

Yes, you know, and I promise the book is funny too. We've had, we've had some serious, we've covered some serious ground here today, but I promise the book is funny too.

It's coming out May 19, and you can, pre-order it through my website, stevenrowley.com. I'm on Instagram @mrstevenrowley. And I'll be posting tour dates soon.

So, hope to see you again, you know, at an event, or you know anyone listening who wants to come by and say hello, I would absolutely love that.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely, looking forward to it. And all that information will be in the show notes. So, make sure you connect with Steven and pre-order your copy of Take Me with You after you're done listening.

Steven Rowley

Thank you so much.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (30:16)

Rob Loveless

And for the podcast, you know the drill. For any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

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And if you're scared of commitment, don't worry. I get it. You can make a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee for any dollar amount. And both the Patreon and Buy Me a Coffee are @ajadedgay.

And remember: every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.

Outtake (31:41)

Steven Rowley

And so, we will continue to tell our stories and lift up stories and herald the importance of these stories as long as we can. Until we're all in camps.

Rob Loveless

Let's hope it doesn't get to that point. With that, not the camp part, with the rest of the answer, though, with that in mind...