165. Reclaiming Queer History: The Impact of LGBTQ+ Historical Fiction (with Jeza Belle)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Jeza Belle

We have that power in our hands to not be small in spirit and to claim ourselves. We've been here forever, as I say, and we will be here forever more.

Episode Introduction (0:29)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless, and today I am a non-jaded gay because things have really cooled off here.

We're fully into fall mode, which I know for some people, it's depressing because the days are shorter, the weather's colder, it's a bit more overcast, but for me, it's a very comforting time of year.

I'm a bit of a homebody, no lie, and I really just like feeling cozy in my house.

So, I'm not upset that it's cloudier out and a little bit cooler, because it really motivates me to just wear some comfy clothes, curl up on my couch under a blanket, and just watch TV all day, because I need more days like that.

Housekeeping (1:07)

Rob Loveless

And separate from being a homebody, I did want to do a little housekeeping up front today.

So real quick, I just wanted to announce, if you haven't seen on the socials recently, I just launched a Discord channel, the LGBTQuties Lounge, for everybody out there.

I thought it would be a really good way to keep everyone connected, to interact with the listeners a little bit more, and really create a community via this forum so people can chat and connect.

Because that was the whole point of me starting the podcast. To really help connect with other like-minded people in the LGBTQ+ community, because sometimes it can feel really isolating.

So, if you haven't checked it out already, I'd really appreciate it if you could go over there, join it, post a little hello in there, and let's start chatting.

Also, just another quick reminder that we do have the Patreon and Buy Me a Coffee, and I would really appreciate if you'd show any support on there.

As I'm planning ahead for 2026, I'm really trying to ramp things up for the podcast, so I have been doing a little bit of social media advertising, not a lot, because your boy's on a budget.

And I'm also trying to upgrade some equipment. I'm afraid my laptop may go at any minute, because I just had some struggles with it this morning. So, fingers crossed it makes it through this recording today.

I also want to get into video in the future, but I do not have the bandwidth for that yet, or the equipment.

And also, you know, the job is just not jobbing, and it's really kind of taking over my life a little bit more than it should. So, I'm really trying to focus more on the podcasting side of things.

I would love to turn this more into a business. You know, selfishly, it would be great if the podcast could cover my monthly expenses.

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And for November, with the holidays approaching, I thought it would be fun to do the bonus episode on the slight trope about gay men coming out on Thanksgiving. Is it a thing, or is it just a plot device on TV?

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LGTBQ+ Historical Fiction (3:39)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, moving on from the housekeeping, let's talk about today's episode. So as many of us know, 2025 has been a rough and tumble year, especially politically speaking.

And specifically, we've seen LGBTQ+ history being erased, which is very concerning. There's already very little history about us, and now there's the threat that we'll lose that.

So, I'm very excited to welcome on a special guest today who is an author of LGBTQ+ historical fiction.

And you know, while it may be fictional and not the hard-hitting history many of us are accustomed to, it does really create a sense of representation from a time before members of the LGBTQ+ community were really remembered or recognized in society.

So, we'll get into that shortly. But before we do, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (4:24)

Rob Loveless

So, for this episode, we drew The Sun, which is a Major Arcana card. And as a reminder, Major Arcana cards signal a big change or life lesson.

And The Sun is full of masculine energy, so it's very action oriented. It's number 19 in the Major Arcana and in numerology, we add double digits together, so one plus nine is ten.

Add those together and we get one. So glad that all those math courses for my MBA are paying off.

And ten represents the achievement of something, or the end of a cycle or chapter, and one represents a new start and the individual. So, one chapter has ended and a new one has begun.

And when we draw The Sun, it's shining a light on uncertain situations and providing the clarity we need, which gives us a sense of renewed optimism and understanding.

And with this card being full of masculine energy, it's connecting us with our power source, which reminds us of our strength so we can take action and succeed again.

This card is showing us the end of one cycle and the beginning of a new one.

So, we're coming out of a time of uncertainty, and The Sun is shining on us to help us see the potential on the horizon and energize us to take action so that we can move toward outcomes that align with our happiness.

Guest Introduction (5:31)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to welcome our next guest. She is a New York City based drag queen and author of The Freedom to Love. Please welcome Jeza Belle. Hi, Jeza Belle, how are you today?

Jeza Belle

Hi. I'm so excited to be here, to be with you, and this is going to be fabulous today. So, thanks for having me.

Rob Loveless

Oh, thank you for coming on. I'm super excited for this topic. I think it's especially relevant given the political world we're in, we're seeing LGBTQ+ history being erased when there has been such little history typically recorded.

So, it's great to have an LGBTQ+ author who focuses on LGBTQ+ historical fiction to kind of create that representation in a time when we really didn't have that recorded history. So, a lot to discuss here.

Before we get into it, though, I do want to just ask if you could introduce yourself to the listeners. Tell them a little bit about yourself, background, career, pronouns, all that fun stuff.

Jeza Belle

Sure, I am the one and only Jeza Belle. Two words. There's lots of jezebels out there, but there's only one Jeza Bella, right? So got to start with that.

And I am a drag queen, a comedian, produced, did a little acting, do a lot of writing, both for magazines, print, and online, and have written a whole bunch of books, and live in New York City.

And I am, when I'm in drag, I am she/her/hers. The rest of my life, I use male pronouns and but actually, I'm pretty open.

You can use any with me, and I'm okay with that, but I try to respect everybody else's. And I'm ready to roll. Hit it.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. And for all the listeners, obviously, podcasting is not a visual platform, but it's a 10 am recording, and Jeza Belle is here in full red wig, full face of makeup.

She came ready today, so we're gonna have a great episode ahead.

Jeza Belle

Only for you.

Rob Loveless

Oh, I'm flattered. Well, I do like to ask all my guests, today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Jeza Belle

I am non-jaded, and I feel like I'm a non-jaded gay, because there's always possibilities and potential in the world, and I just in all things, refuse to have a dismal or dark view.

I feel that anything can happen, and we can make things happen. So why be jaded? Everything's before us, even when times are bad and things are dark, we still have some kind of power and control over ourselves.

And personally, I believe in a higher power, and that higher power leads me to never feel jaded and always feel full of hope and possibility.

Rob Loveless

And I definitely think we need that optimism in today's world.

And I think to your point, even when things are dark and dreary, you can take that and channel it through your creativity and put it into something productive and hopefully create some representation or some further optimism for people out there.

Jeza Belle

Especially at a time that they want us to be silent. Why would we be? That just feeds into exactly what they want. They want to diminish us.

There's a movement to silence our voices, and I don't know. I got too big of a yapper to be silenced. So here you go. You know?

Rob Loveless

Well, you did touch upon your writing career a little bit up front. How you've written for some publications as well as your own novels.

So, I believe some of the platforms you've written for are The Huffington Post and The Advocate.

So, what draws you to storytelling, and how do you drag and writing intersect for you creatively?

Jeza Belle

What's really fascinating is, well I'll just go right back to the beginning in that I started my drag by not planning to be a drag queen.

I wrote a web series about drag queen superheroes and these three sisters, and when I casted two of them, I was going to produce and direct this, found two wonderful drag queens, and just never found anybody to play the main role.

It was called Jezza and The Bells. And I wound up saying, oh, I'll just do it, even though I've never acted, never did drag, not like that.

I mean, I did it once, and it was a hot, total, hot mess, but I was like, I'll just step in and do it.

And then after I did the podcast, what was really interesting is people started reaching out to me about writing, not just performing, but writing. And my first writing piece was from the UK.

Somebody said, hey, can you write a couple of articles? And then somebody else from the UK said, can you write a column for us?

And then I also got asked to write for some pieces in Asia, and that kind of started this whole writing thing. And then next thing, you know, is writing for US based platforms.

And, you know, writing for like, you said, like, The Advocate, I wrote a piece for. Wrote a bunch for The Huffington Post, and then had my own columns in the UK and US.

And then after that, I thought I need to be writing creatively as well. So that's sort of it birthed.

So I started doing a lot of drag stuff, but also doing a lot of writing, and writing all in my drag name, which incidentally, not to just go totally off on a tangent, but incidentally, over the years, many people have offered to do things with my writing, but only if I would not use my drag name, which is something that I refuse to do.

And so, it took a while to get to the place of doing some of the things I'm doing now, and that was just out of pure absolute refusal, because drag gave me a voice in writing that I didn't have before I did it, and so I wanted to pay honor to that.

And also, I just hate anybody trying to tell me that I can't represent in the way I want to represent. So, no.

The Freedom to Love (11:02)

Rob Loveless

And your newest novel, The Freedom to Love, is part of the Presence Collection, which centers LGBTQIA+ characters in historically overlooked settings.

So, what inspired the series, and how do you choose the time periods or themes you explore?

Jeza Belle

The main thing for me is things that interest me, because I think if you're going to write about something, it has to be something that you have a heart connection to.

So that kind of centers where I find the stories. But the reason that I that I wanted to write this collection was there's this whole, I mean, I alluded to it before, this movement does not only silence us, but there's like, a pretend sort of thing, like, like, we haven't existed since the beginning of time.

And it's so ridiculous, because if you look at any society and any history of humanity, we are there.

And by the way, we're there, not just in the LGBT, we're there in the Q, we're there in the I, we're there in the A, we're there in the plus, we are there.

And so, you know, I wanted to highlight where we've been sort of forgotten.

Rob Loveless

And what was the initial spark or motivation behind The Freedom to Love, and why did you choose to set this particular love story during the era of American slavery?

Jeza Belle

So, The Freedom to Love came out of wondering. I'm in a relationship of 16 years with my partner, who happens to be African American, and was wondering one day, what if?

What would have happened if we met 150 years ago? Which, I think it's more than a little more than that now, 175 I think, from where this particular book is set.

And I was thinking, what would have happened, you know, because we like to think that we would have done X, Y, and Z, but we don't know, because we haven't lived in those times where there are different sets of pressures.

And so, I wanted to explore how could a love story have worked back then, and that would have been incredibly difficult. But was there any possibility?

Now, we have heard historically numerous times about white men and Black women and female slaves, right?

And obviously women were raped and there were extreme power dynamics that led some to be in quote unquote relationships, of course, but these were very uneven power structures.

What would that have looked like for two men?

Because I personally never heard anything about two men, and there is no way in the world you can tell me that somewhere during that time two men, there wasn't some connection.

Now, whether or not it was a rape scenario too, whether or not it was a love scenario.

I just wanted to explore that and kind of intersect that with my own relationship, and just kind of see like, hey, how could this have happened?

Rob Loveless

And in the novel Arthur and Samson, the two main characters, their relationship is layered with emotional, social, and political tension, and it's shaped by the intersection of queer love and interracial dynamics.

So, with that in mind, and given the time period, your book is set in what were some of the ethical considerations or challenges you faced while writing the story?

Jeza Belle

There were tons of considerations, right?

Because here I am a white man when I'm not in drag, writing about slavery and writing about love existing and having to inhabit in my mind and in my heart and in my soul, in a sense, these Black characters of people who were stolen from another land and how dehumanized they were.

And so, what I did not want to do is I wanted to make sure that it wasn't completely tone deaf and insensitive too. I just didn't want it to be like a Karen moment, basically.

So, it was really important to me to, I have had a phenomenal African American editor have eyes on on this manuscript as I wrote it, which that was the novel.

I had African American male sensitivity readers and others give a look and kind of let me know where there were weak points or weirdness, especially, was really looking for where it just kind of goes tone deaf or does something that's totally off the rails, because that was never the end point.

This is the point. Essentially at its heart, this is a love story, but it's so much more, because it's so layered with so many issues, right?

On so many levels, that you know, it really did need eyes that went beyond me and beyond my own understanding.

Rob Loveless

And how do you navigate writing about love in a context where consent, autonomy, and power are so deeply compromised?

Jeza Belle

So, in this particular book, it's compromised, all of those things are compromised, and yet that's something we we have to confront, because that was the reality.

And so, I've been asked before, like, why would I not have done that? Like would it have been better to not have some of that fed through the novel?

But for me, it was very important to do that, because I think when we try to just completely sugarcoat or whitewash something, we really take away the experience that people have when they're treated as less than and secondary, or in this case, not even human, right?

And so, you know, it was important for me to shine a light on those things. And yeah, it's never easy.

And of course, you know, people will walk away with probably many different feelings, but it's still important to do that, because even amongst ourselves, and I say ourselves as as white men, right, it's important that we have those conversations too, and that we don't just leave race and and racial conversations to because we hear a lot of oh, it happened a long time ago.

Get over it. And yet we there, the repercussions are still extremely prevalent today, and yet, as white people, we're often blind to it.

And so, we have to sort of continue to, I think, explore this amongst ourselves, as well as with our you know, the brethren that are the rock of this country. You know, that built this country.

Centering LGBTQ+ Narratives (17:18)

Rob Loveless

And I know at the top of the episode, we were talking about how, despite LGBTQ+ people existing forever, there really has not been much representation.

It was kind of straightwashed or ignored previously to the past, you know, let's say 100 years.

That's when we might have some documented history, even though we've existed forever, but there's really not that much prior to it.

So, with that in mind, why is it important to center LGBTQIA+ narratives in historical contexts that have traditionally erased or ignored them?

Jeza Belle

It's important because it puts a marker in the sand and says to people, we were there. And you can go back to all sorts of ancient and not everything was written. A lot of stuff goes by oral tradition.

Sometimes you get it in pictures, right? And carvings and paintings, and we were always around.

And the more we let people act like we are just a modern phenomena, the more they're going to continue to try to make us small.

And not just small in numbers, because that is, you know, a calculated attempt by some, but small in spirit. And we have that power in our hands to not be small in spirit and to claim ourselves.

For we've been here forever, as I say, and we will be here forever more. And so, look at the current moment that we're in right and think about the arc of history.

This is a terrible moment, and yet all moments end, and we're still going to be here. No matter what they do, no matter what happens, we will still be here when the dust settles.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And how do you hope readers engage with The Freedom to Love and what conversations are you hoping it will spark?

Jeza Belle

I hope that people do a number of things. I hope that they think about how important it is.

I think it's very important that we have all kinds of characters in our books, and that we don't just look at people who look and sound like us all of the time.

And you know, historical fiction has its lovers, but people usually like a lot of contemporary stuff too. And I think it's important for us to not negate.

We only got to where we are because of what's happened before.

So, I hope we have some conversation around the importance of exploring the past, and then I do hope that we dive into these issues of race and in this particular one gender and some of the others, sexuality, and yeah, have some tough conversations, but also celebrate the fact that we made it, and we're going to continue to.

A thousand years from now, they're going to say, oh, we're doing this study on this drag queen, who was a gay man and wrote all these books about history, and even then, they were around, right?

And yeah, we were, and we will be.

Politics & Historical Fiction (20:00)

Rob Loveless

And given the current state of our country, do you see any parallels between the themes in your book and what we're experiencing today?

Jeza Belle

Yes, and if you look at my first book, my first novel, not my first book, but my first novel in this collection is called Blood Rouge, and it's about a gender fluid young man in Germany during the 1930s.

And a lot of what happens, and some of the things that that this character is confronting parallels what's happening today. Then I look, we go to this one, The Freedom to Love, right?

And a lot of what happens, and there's this part where Lincoln's giving a speech, and there's you hear, if you look at the most wicked character in the book is the mother Anna, and she's just the most racist vile.

Am I allowed to cuss on here? I don't know if I am, but yeah, she's the most racist bitch, you'll and I've heard this from a lot of people, she is the nastiest piece of work that people say they've read in a long time.

And yet, in many ways, she's our current leader, right? And or our leaders. And so, there's great parallel to what's what's happened in the past and through these books to what's happening today.

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, what does The Freedom to Love mean to you, both personally and politically?

Jeza Belle

Personally, it means to me, you know, it just connects back to my own relationship. And I just think about the fact that, you know, yeah, it's 150 60, 75, years since pre–Civil War and the Civil War.

And in my own relationship, you know, watching the struggles that my own partner lives through that frankly, I was oblivious to before I was in a relationship with him.

It it touches me on a personal level, this book, because it's like our love is transcendent. And I'm so you know, this is somebody who, truthfully, can do more than anybody I've ever known.

He's smarter than anybody, and better in so many ways than anybody, and yet, oftentimes doesn't get the same opportunities because of the color of his skin.

So, this book resonates to me with that, and I tried to add some modern reflection in this, or kind of spin a little of it on its head, especially around this idea of choices when there weren't a whole lot of choices.

And yet, choices still, for a lot of people in this country, are limited, and that just kind of resonates with me on a personal level.

And politically, I you know, I just, I guess I'm beating a drum, but I just want us to stand up and continue to declare our presence. And I don't care how many anti whatever bills they write.

No matter what happens, we are still going to be here. And so, we've got to use our voice to let them know we're not going anywhere, whatever that voice looks like.

And art is a voice, and this is, you know, my way of making a statement and standing for people who who oftentimes don't have a voice.

And so, my other books, and, you know, I have another book that's a nonfiction that was highly controversial and that was grounded in in having a voice for people who don't or can't find a voice.

And really, all of my books are, in a sense. They all sort of tie through with that.

You know, they all wind up being, which I find weird, because I never have set out to write something controversial, yet every one of my books winds up landing me, you know, getting me death threats and winding, winds up all over the place, telling me how, you know, shocking.

How dare I and, but I think if we don't pull back the layers and look at taboos and question things and wonder what really was, and have, you know, intellectual conversations, we sort of defeated from the get go.

Episode Closing (23:51)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, The Sun. Again, this card comes to us as one cycle ends so a new one can begin.

And it's shining light on the uncertainty and energizing us to take action and move toward outcomes that align with our happiness. And The Sun is all about success and clarity and optimism.

And as it relates to today's episode, Jeza Belle is certainly a beacon of optimism, both personally and through her work. Like she said, LGBTQ+ people have existed forever, but were not always recognized.

But now we're moving into a new cycle where our community is getting the recognition it deserves and is continuing to make history.

And despite recent threats against that, we're continuing to have our voices heard through art, politics, and society, and we won't be silenced.

And that's the key: to make sure that we are continuing to raise our voices, because what we are living through now will be history one day.

So, it's important to make sure we meet that movement and that future generations recognize that we are here and continuing to push for progress for the LGBTQ+ community.

And even if you're not a creator or activist, you can still make history by being authentically yourself and allowing yourself to experience queer joy. Because that's one of the greatest forms of resistance.

And while it might seem scary at first, The Sun reminds us that we are strong and we will succeed, and beyond our own power and success, we will experience happiness.

Excerpt from The Freedom to Love (25:14)

Rob Loveless

Well, Jeza Belle, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been a really insightful and inspiring episode.

As we're coming towards the end of this today, can you read an excerpt from The Freedom to Love?

Jeza Belle

Absolutely. Let me kind of give a little bit of background.

So, Arthur is our white plantation owner. He has actually inherited this from his family. Samson is his childhood friend who is also a slave.

And they have, they are in love, and so at one point, things happen.

Don't want to give a lot away, but they wind up, Samson winds up running away rather than being killed, and Arthur eventually joins him on the run.

And at this point they are, they are on the bank of the Ohio River, and I just want to pick up from here:

“They approached the bank gingerly. The rocks nearest the shoreline jabbed into their souls, and once they dipped their ankles in, they began to wade slowly out into the water.

'Thank you for coming with me, Arthur,' Samson said, over the sounds of the river as the water went from their ankles to their knees. The powerful rush of liquid against Samson's legs surprised him.

As the river had looked so calm when they entered, at least from his viewpoint above the surface. He did not for one second guess the force that lay under its murky abyss, because it was unseen from the land.

While Samson had urged Arthur to leave him miles back, he was grateful for his company now, because he did not know crossing the river would come with his knees that knocked together from both cold and fear. Joy crept into Samson's heart.

They were almost there, so close to Ohio. He could hardly believe it. Just a few more minutes.

Once they made it past this deep pool, all they would need to do is to get over those shallow rapids on the other side, and then Samson would finally and fully be free.

Tears of expectation formed in the corner of Samson's eyes. 'I never dared hope for this moment to be true, but now that it's here, I cannot help but burst with excitement.'

Arthur looked back at him, and the two smiled warmly at one another. He noted how Arthur's eyes watered at the sight of the specks from his own eyes.

However, the moment and all that it meant was short lived, as Samson's tears did not have time to fall, because at that moment, the sound of howling dogs broke over the rustling waters.

'They have come,' Samson screamed as he turned around to see the dogs had come out from the trees where Arthur and he had emerged only moments before.

The canines began to gnash and foam at the mouth and they seemed to fly the distance that separated them from the shore until the pack was only a few feet away from the shivering river-soaked men.

The blue ticks snapped and yipped from the shoreline before two of them dove into the water and swam out at Samson and Arthur.

The bumps on Samson's arms burst into panic like the terror that seized at his chest.

'They're here,' Samson heard Clarkson yell from atop a horse as he burst into view, and next he watched as Flicker and Piglet on their own horses rushed for the river.

They were followed by two slave men that Samson did not know. Samson turned back to Arthur and cried out, 'What do we do?'

Arthur, who was just behind Samson, turned his own head back toward the rushing pack of hounds. Then suddenly he appeared to falter.

Samson looked on helplessly as Arthur, who had lost his footing, fell over head first into the water. His clothes scattered in the wind then rushed right past Samson's legs.

'Samson,' Arthur yelled as he thrashed in the water. The current lifted him, and within seconds, Arthur's body was rushed downstream as his arms flailed violently in the air.

Samson stood frozen as Arthur's body was instantaneously carried away.

Though his arms flew wildly and his shrinking head bobbed in and out of the foaming current, nothing he did stopped the river's forceful current from carrying him away, until at last, his body faded into the distance and then around a bend in the river.

All possibility, all hope, vanished in an instant. 'Oh, Arthur,' Samson started to cry, but there was no time left for concern over Arthur's safety. He was gone.

There was not a spare second to mourn what could have been. With Arthur already assigned a fate, this moment was Samson's one and only chance to grasp at freedom.

So, he threw his clothes into the water, then dove in head first, and tried to swim with all his might toward the rapid shallows.

It was futile, as within mere seconds, though the dogs had retreated from the deeper water and swam back to the other side, Flicker and Piglet's horses rushed into the river, and they were alongside Samson.

There was no place left to turn as he was hemmed in on both sides. He gave up and his body was dragged back out of the water by his arms until they dumped him hard onto Kentucky's dry land."

Rob Loveless

That was an excerpt from the freedom to love by Jeza Belle.

Connect with Jeza Belle (30:21)

Rob Loveless

Well, once again, thank you so much, Jeza Belle, for coming on today. This has been a great episode. Can you tell all the listeners where they can connect with you and read your books?

Jeza Belle

Yes, absolutely. We'll go to IAmJezaBelle.com and you can find just about anything. And look for me on Instagram @IAmJezaBelle also, and you'll see all my events, everything that's going on.

Hosting a quarterly Bookalicious. It's an LGBTQIA virtual reading event where I try to bring a vast variety of authors and give them an opportunity, a platform.

People who don't always get a chance to read for other people, and then they give away free books. So, look out for Bookalicious.

And then be looking for my book, my newest book called Abomination, the story of David and Jonathan. I think you'll possibly hopefully like that one too. It is the biblical bisexual love story.

And so yeah, once again, stirring it up.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. And all that information will be in the show notes, so definitely be sure to check it out.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (31:22)

Rob Loveless

And for the podcast, you know the drill. Any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

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Mmm-bye.

Outtake (32:50)

Jeza Belle

And that just kind of resonates with me on a personal level. And the other half. What was the other part you asked me? I got so deep into it, I...

Rob Loveless

No worries.