160. Why Queer Bookstores Matter: Preserving LGBTQ+ Culture and Community (with Greg Newton & Donnie Jochum)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Donnie Jochum

We're asking younger generation to keep that in mind, to create your spaces, the work that is involved, and maybe, if you want a space to stay alive, become more involved and see how you can carry it on when the time comes.

Episode Introduction (0:37)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay because the street saga continues.

If you've listened to the past episodes, you know that back over the spring and early summer, there were issues with my street where the city was coming in to just replace water lines, but they didn't really do a great job of that.

So instead of actually doing a full street and sidewalk restoration, like they did with the streets surrounding my house, instead, they just kind of did patchwork, broke things, and made it a lot worse. 

And as if that wasn't infuriating enough, they're back now. So, at the end of my street, where the cross street is, they started digging up to put in a new water line there.

And along the way, they've marked up my street because they said that they may have to dig at the bottom, and they're not sure how far up they'll have to go, even though my street is marked all the way up to the halfway point of my street.

And it's just there, it's a never-ending break. I mean, they're starting to do work at 6:30 in the morning. My walls are shaking. They even turned off the water again without telling us.

So, it's just been a nightmare. 

Queer Bookstores (1:38)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, from organizations that are causing cracks to organizations that are actually giving back. Today, I am very excited to have two very special guests join us today to talk all about queer bookstores.

You know, in past episodes, we've talked about the importance of queer representation in literature, as well as building community and finding our chosen family.

And prior to the digital age, queer bookstores were a major hub for the LGBTQ+ community. And they still exist today, which is why it's really important that we support, preserve, and protect them.

So, we will be diving into all of that, but first, you know the drill, tarot time.

Tarot (2:17)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the King of Cups. As you'll remember, Cups is tied to the element of water. It's feminine energy, so it's asking us to meditate and reflect.

And Cups is representative of our emotions, and you can think of it flowing freely like water. Now, while Cups is a feminine energy, the king represents masculine energy.

So, we really have a balance of the two energies, which represents taking time to reflect and also taking action.

The King is also the 14th card in the suit, so we add double digits together and get five, which is tied to change, instability, and loss. And sometimes, five is referred to as the conflict card.

But pulling the King of Cups represents someone who exudes emotional stability and empathy, which I think really ties into the themes of both the feminine and masculine energies.

You know, it's like the perfect balance between head and heart.

And this card appears to us when we've gained control of our feelings, meaning we allow ourselves to feel the feels, but we don't let them get the best of us.

We know how to process them in a healthy way and use them to take strategic action forward to achieve our goals, while also ensuring those around us remain engaged along the way.

Guest Introduction (3:20)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I'm very excited to welcome today's guests. They are not only partners in life, but business partners as well, and co-owners of The Bureau of General Services—Queer Division.

Please welcome Greg Newton and Donnie Jochum. Hi guys. How are you doing today?

Greg Newton

Good.

Donnie Jochum

Doing well.

Rob Loveless

Doing well, thanks. Just, you know, a hot day here in Philadelphia, so trying to stay cool inside in the air conditioning. I'm sure you can relate. In New York City, I know it's been a heat wave this summer.

Greg Newton

Definitely.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, it feels like it's been hotter than normal.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, this summer, it's just been a weird one. I've been kind of not doing my typical summer activities and just staying in, getting a lot done.

So, I'm I don't want to wish it away, but I am looking forward to the fall, because this year I just feel summer is not it for me.

Greg Newton

Yeah, it's been a hot one, that's for sure.

Rob Loveless

Well, one of the nice things about it being hot out and staying inside the air conditioning is it gives you time to cozy up with a book, and hopefully a queer book, which I'm very excited, ties in nicely to our topic today about the importance of queer spaces, and in particular, queer bookstores.

So, I'm very excited to dive right into this with you both. Beforehand, though, I'd like to introduce you to both listeners.

Can you please tell them your names, pronouns, background, career, all that fun stuff?

Greg Newton

Sure, I'm Greg Newton. Pronouns, he/him. My background, I let's see where to begin. I've been in New York for almost 34 years.

Before doing The Bureau, I was pursuing a PhD in art history at the CUNY City University of New York Graduate Center, and I was teaching at Parsons School of Design, teaching art history and writing.

So that's that's my background.

Donnie Jochum

And I'm Donnie Jochum. Um, he/him, and I've been in New York since 2000 when I moved here from New Orleans.

Literature degree from the University of New Orleans, deep retail background, so familiar with the retail business, music, and bookstores, amongst other things.

And you know, just living in New York City and exploring it and connecting with the community. We'll tell you the story of how we started or when we came up with the idea.

But all of those things sort of connected at this one moment in time.

Rob Loveless

And today, are you both jaded or non-jaded gays, and why?

Greg Newton

I'm non-jaded, I would say. I mean, I feel like it's such a messy, fucked up world, but I try to stay clear and and not get crushed by all of the all of the sadness and madness, and just remind myself I'm okay.

I'm doing okay, and I'm going to do my best to help others be okay and and not lose my mind. How's that for an answer?

Rob Loveless

It's good. We definitely need that. In a very jaded world, it's always good to find ways to be non-jaded.

Greg Newton

Yeah.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, and I think I'm a, I don't know I was thinking about this earlier, and I tend to lean to not jaded, because I try to cling on to the, the signals of hope and, you know, creativity and connection and community, and I'm constantly reminded of how people are making it through times like these times.

So, I have that element of hopefulness. But I think if I look back across my life in general, there are components that are jaded in terms of connection to, particularly the gay male community.

And you know, what we see is our portrayal and our focuses and our emphasis and just our culture in general that I've never really always connected with in my life.

So, I'm mostly not, but there are sometimes moments of, ah, you know.

Rob Loveless

I feel that's inevitable, but it seems like you both are mostly non-jaded, which I'm really glad we're bringing that energy today. I could definitely use it.

So, I appreciate having two non-jaded gays in the house.

Greg Newton

Excellent.

The Bureau of General Services—Queer Division (7:30)

Rob Loveless

Well, with that in mind, I'd like to get you know right into it. Obviously, today we're talking about queer bookstores. So, can you tell us about The Bureau of General Services—Queer Division?

Greg Newton

Yeah. So, we came up with the idea, or we started fantasizing about opening a queer bookstore in September 2011.

We had met in June 2011, so we always joke that we got pregnant quickly, because it was only a couple months later that we were like we were walking where A Different Light used to be.

Donnie Jochum

So, for anyone in New York City, West 19th Street, around Seventh Avenue.

Greg Newton

Yeah, that was a queer bookstore that was there for years, and that closed in 2002, I want to say.

Donnie Jochum

Maybe.

Greg Newton

So, we started thinking about this, like, when did that close? Wait a minute, when did Oscar Wilde Memorial Book Shop close? That closed in 2008, I believe.

Donnie Jochum

Yep.

Greg Newton

And then, and then we were saying, like, oh my God, that's embarrassing. New York doesn't have a queer bookstore? What the fuck, yeah.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah. I got very angry about the idea, because I had been to both of those locations on, you know, prior to their closing. And just, you know, the thought of, where is our space?

And you with the developments in the industry, with both shopping online, but also big box retail, etc., combination of factors, it just very angry about it.

Greg Newton

Yeah. And so yeah, we started fantasizing about it. And I had found out in July 2011 that the 2011/2012 academic year was going to be my last at Parsons.

And that had been a lengthy, difficult process that left me feeling a bit jaded about academia, deeply disappointed by academia, and feeling like there wasn't really a way for me to continue.

So, I decided not to finish my PhD, even though I got all the way to the writing stage.

So passed, you know, I did all my coursework, passed all my exams, got my topic approved, started researching and writing, and then was like, no, no, I don't think so.

So yeah, and then we we just got more and more serious about it, and started interviewing bookstore owners, doing lots of research, talking to anyone who would talk to us about this and and get their feedback.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, it was a conversation topic we started having with friends and roommates of just, well, what if we did this? A big what if, and what would it look like, and how could we make it happen?

And the fantasy increasingly became a well, what does it take? Let's research that. And then we actually wrote a business plan.

I mean, that's the hardest part of starting any business, is getting a business plan and then going to, you know, workshops and connecting with organizations like...

Greg Newton

American Booksellers Association.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, and just understanding and understanding retail business 101, right? Down to the foundation.

And then we, as we started telling friends about it, we explored how do we get out to the marketplace? And that brought us to Pride that year. And a whole group of...

Greg Newton

2012.

Donnie Jochum

A whole group of friends sort of came together to help us canvas the street fair, collecting email addresses and telling people, passing out tote bags for email addresses, and we had T shirts printed saying, you know, Bureau of General Services—Queer Division and the back said, coming soon, bookstore and cafe in New York City.

So, we did all this before we actually even had a space or an idea of what we were going to like, how we were going to get that space.

Greg Newton

Obviously, the cafe part never happened.

But that, I mean, initially we thought that would be what would make the money, because books, just, it's really hard to make it just on books, especially if you're a so-called niche bookstore, not a general bookstore.

It's it's just very difficult. So, we thought correctly that we needed more sources of income, but we never had the capital and the resources to make that part happen.

Rob Loveless

So, how did your experiences as queer people inspire the mission behind The Bureau?

Greg Newton

I think, well, both of us, even though we are gay men, never really connected with gay male culture, or, I should say, felt some distance from it.

You know, we identified with some aspects, to be sure, but there was a lot that made us feel like I don't know these a lot of sometimes, these aren't my people.

Yeah, I mean, when I moved to the city in the 90s, gay culture, gay male culture, was very like, muscle clone. And I'm just like, I can work out until forever. I will never be that person.

And I also don't want to be that person. I mean, I'm just not, it's not my, my scene, you know? I'm more of an intellectual. I like to talk about topics in depth.

I like to get into distinctions and and I'm very, you know, I'm political. And, you know, it's complicated, I guess is what I'm saying. Our relationship to gay male culture in particular is kind of complicated.

Donnie Jochum

And I think for myself, growing up in New Orleans and incredibly much more inclusive culture, flavors and mixtures and opinions and openness, and inclusion.

I felt like I wanted to recreate something like that around a passion point, which, for me, literature and books and education, and information. Sharing of knowledge sort of connected, for me, this idea.

I mean, if, I, if I had done this when I was younger, I probably would have opened a music store, but music stores went the way of dinosaurs as well, right?

They've had, they've had a niche resurgence, but bookstores also, they are still hubs of community engagement and sharing thoughts and ideas.

And I think, for me, in New Orleans and having that, let's bring people together attitude, I brought that, that was interesting to me. And how could we do that with a bookstore?

Rob Loveless

And were there any unique challenges you encountered when establishing The Bureau?

Greg Newton

Well, neither of us had started a business, so that's a challenge. You know, coming from a background in art history, as you might imagine, I'm not a very business-minded person.

Donnie has a little more experience with that, handling operations for big, big stores like Virgin.

Donnie Jochum

Yep.

Greg Newton

You know, so he had some more business experience.

The main challenges were just the challenges facing queer bookstores, especially, but even all indie bookstores, you know, the big box bookstores had come in in the 90s and and that resulted in so many closings.

Then you had the internet taking off and online sales. Then you had e-books. I mean, it was just like one punch after another, and for again, a niche bookstore, like a queer bookstore, all of that is just like 10 times harder.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah.

Greg Newton

So those were very real big challenges, and and rent in New York is crazy. Every bit, every square foot is paid for.

It's, it's, that's just a huge challenge. And it was a huge challenge, uh, especially in the beginning.

Donnie Jochum

And, and I think some of the systems in place in the book industry are built and designed for a big box B&N, right? Um, their systems, their inventory management.

So, we really had to do research and dig in to find out what titles.

We know, what we know, but we don't know everything, and doing searches, and, you know, research around the newest books and all these new genres that are now out and this sub categorization of some titles, that in itself, I think, for a smaller business with limited resources, without an inventory system that supports that kind of business model, definitely detrimental.

So, we spent a lot of time with the help of our volunteers, just simply, what are the new titles?

Because you can go on and do Google searches, and there are all kinds of recommendations and all kinds of blogs and but you have to have a business judgment.

Will this fit with this, with our our space? Is this the right title? Are these the titles, you know?

Greg Newton

And we also learned about so many independent queer presses closing. Like Allison Books had been a major queer publisher, and they had closed. Serpent's Tail is another one.

Donnie Jochum

High Risk.

Greg Newton

High Risk Books. So that was also, you know, we just saw how the publishing industry, the book industry, had been totally turned upside down. You know, not that that's all bad.

Many industries need shaking up. But yeah, we just saw the challenges facing independent publishers, queer publishers, especially as well as queer bookstores.

So, we knew we were getting into difficult terrain, definitely.

Donnie Jochum

And I would say that maybe another unique challenge is we didn't have the we didn't have the funding or the financial so we borrowed against my 401(k) to start the capital funding to do a pop-up experience that was a limited time, limited run.

Greg Newton

Yeah, I think we had the fantasy that some rich gays would swoop in and save us, and they never did.

Donnie Jochum

So, you know, we still don't take an income on the store.

Greg Newton

Yeah, it's all volunteer, including us.

Donnie Jochum

So, I think the great, yeah. So, we've had some unique moments where we're like, how will we do this? How will this work? What can we do?

And so endless list of people that have helped along the way, been part of the experience, and continue to be could not have done it just the two of us. Absolutely never. No way.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, well, if there's any rich gays listening, reach out to Greg and Donnie. I'll put their information in the show notes.

Greg Newton

Yes, we'll tell you how to donate in a bit.

Queer Bookstores as Community Hubs (18:30)

Rob Loveless

But in all seriousness, you know, obviously there were a lot of risks involved with setting up The Bureau, but I'm glad you persevered and took them, because it seems to have really paid off.

It's a great community hub. I was there last summer. I had learned about it through Amin Ghaziani.

He was having a book event there for Long Live Queer Nightlife, so I got to take the train from Philly in just for the day. But it was a great space, a great selection of books.

I actually purchased Swole while I was there. It's a year later, and I'm still only 30 pages into it, not for lack of interest.

It's just grad school has been consuming my life, so I haven't had as much reading time, but like I said, it's really a great community hub.

So, with that in mind, can you tell us a little bit more about the resources you provide to the LGBTQ+ community?

Greg Newton

Yeah. I mean, the first thing is just space. We always say the main resource we offer people is space, a space to explore queer culture for free. You can walk in.

Anyone can walk in for free and check out our exhibitions. We always have changing art exhibitions, or sometimes activist materials, sometimes a combination of art and activist materials.

So yeah, people can come in for free and check out the exhibitions, the books, the publications. They can chat with us, they can chat with other people. They can come to events which are also free.

And, you know, we pass a bag for donations, but it's it's up to people, whether or not they do that.

So that's our main thing is offering this space for connection with queer culture and other queer people for free. Of course, we want people to donate.

We want people to buy books, and that helps us continue. But it is important to us that that there's not that barrier that you have access to it, no matter what.

Even if you're unable to donate or buy a book, you can still come in, you can still connect to the culture. You can still connect to people.

Donnie Jochum

And I think something that we, a couple of things we hear quite frequently. I don't know if I would be able to sell my book if I couldn't sell it here. So, we do consignment.

We have to select because we don't have enough space to carry everything. So, we do have to sort of figure out, okay, will this fit? How will this do?

We also hear, of course, you know, the most recent event connected to our current exhibition. It was publicly shared.

Slava Mogutin, curator, shared with the audience that, you know, an exhibition like this, with this kind of photography, with this subject matter, we would not be able to show this anyplace else.

No gallery would take a show like this. So, I think that's a big that's a big signal is that we are open. We try to be welcoming.

We want it to be hospitable, and we want everyone to feel like they can find themselves and explore and feel that randomness of discovery in a bookstore-type space.

But I, I'm I, we feel very proud that we can help serve our community by having consignment that's locally created, product that's locally made, whether it's art or literature, a zine.

We have magazines and works from overseas, not just domestic, right? So, I think that's also the service of along the spaces of it's a space. We're also a channel for

Greg Newton

Culture.

Donnie Jochum

Sharing, sharing works of art.

Greg Newton

Yeah, it's a hub.

Donnie Jochum

And literature.

Greg Newton

Yeah.

Rob Loveless

And you touched upon this a little bit in your answer, but I do want to dive a little bit deeper. What role do you see The Bureau playing in building community for queer people?

Greg Newton

So, in addition to just serving as this space for connection, it's a space we host often workshops. We've hosted courses, some of which have fees, but usually there's some kind of scholarship option.

So, it's not exclusively set off by money. We've done film screenings, performances of all kinds. So, it really is, we host things that are anything under the queer cultural umbrella.

So, it's a place to connect with all of that. It's a place that for people to connect that isn't a bar, which is really important. You know, bars have played an important role for queer culture, to be sure.

Nightlife is really important, but there are a lot of people who want to be in a space where there isn't alcohol being served.

You know, if they if they don't drink, or if they are in recovery, they want to be in a space where they don't feel pressured to drink, where alcohol isn't being served.

I think that's a big deal for a lot of people. It's just a different kind of space than a nightlife space. Although our early days were kind of boozy.

Donnie Jochum

We're on the Lower East Side. We're on the Lower East Side and a pop-up shared gallery space. So, Strange Loop Gallery, really, it was pivotal in providing us the opportunity to try this out. So...

Greg Newton

Yeah, we started out as a pop-up...

Donnie Jochum

Yeah.

Greg Newton

...in Strange Loop Gallery owned by the fashion designer Claire Fleury.

Donnie Jochum

And Cash Exum, photographer. You can find both of them on Instagram, incredible artists.

Greg Newton

Gallery closed, but, but yeah, they enabled us to get started.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah. Three months turned into nine months, and it really helped to, I mean, we really only intended this to be three months, and it became nine months, and it was such an incredible partnership and friendship, and that we met our core group of New Yorkers through Strange Loop Gallery.

Like, I mean, gifted, beyond gifted, beyond gifted, that to this day, we have friendships and relationships from that moment in time. And I think that was my favorite.

That has been my favorite moment of The Bureau's life, because we were so connected at the street level to people like us with similar interests, and we were able to experiment in a way that felt really exciting. 

It still feels exciting, but it's a different level. It's a different experimentation, if you will. So, you know, I think that part of what I wanted to share with you know, what else?

I mean, we've hosted collage parties so people could come and just gather and be creative and use their hands and have tell stories.

We partnered years and years and years ago with Drae Campbell of Tell Queerz on Instagram, that's Queerz with a Z, and we're still co-hosting, supporting Drae, and monthly storytelling experience where three to four storytellers are given a topic to come prepared and share a queer story.

And I think that is another service of owning our narrative. It's really important.

And again, I don't want to knock the services of a big box retailer or a general bookstore, but I can't continue to go into a Barnes & Noble type environment and see one shelf of LGBTQ, whatever books have been chosen to be on the shelf.

I mean, you can't even go through the general fiction and find books by Edmund White unless it's A Boy's Own Story, right? One title, and sometimes you can't even find some James Baldwin books, right?

So, I think that one of our services was our narrative, our space, our knowledge, and share it.

Greg Newton

And we got some good advice before we started from the artist, AA Bronson, Canadian artist.

He was part of the trio called General Idea, and a friend of ours introduced us to him, and he said, my main piece of advice is say yes more than you say no. And that really stuck with us.

We try to say yes as much as possible.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah.

Greg Newton

So that, you know, people come to us and we can say yes, yeah. We'll take your book on consignment or your zine on consignment, we'll put that out there on the shelves, and...

Donnie Jochum

Let's see how it does.

Greg Newton

Yeah, so I think that is a major service that we provide that we're really proud of.

Queer Bookstore Closures (27:08)

Rob Loveless

And to your point, queer bookstores really do provide a unique source of community. Like you said, traditionally, bars and gyms were main queer hubs.

And while there are definitely pros and cons to those areas, and they do build community, they can be very intimidating spaces as well.

So, there's something about being in a queer bookstore where it feels a lot safer.

But then too beyond that, way before we had commercially queer books or commercially queer films, there were these dedicated spaces where gay men, queer people could see themselves through characters, through shared stories, and really get that sense of representation they so badly needed before Hollywood was ready to accept us as kind of a mainstream commodity.

And I think that is something that younger generations really don't understand, that just because how we consume media in general, whether it's books, movies, TV, has changed so much for me.

Something that really stands out is I remember way back when, in my early 20s, when Grindr was my main source of community building, I was watching Will & Grace for like, the first time, all the way through, and there was an episode where there was a queer bookstore that was closing, and Will was really passionate about keeping it up and running.

And while it's sad to see, you know, a queer bookstore close in that storyline, I thought to myself, but why is he so impassioned?

Like he was talking about the connection of how important it was to him, and I just couldn't make that connection for myself, just because I was not somebody who grew up as an adult in the 90s, gay, trying to find a source of community or representation.

It looked very different for me in the 2000s. So, I think as we continue to go down that way, there has been more of that disconnect between younger generations and the importance of queer hubs.

So long-winded rant there, but that was basically my way to transition to this next question. You know, in recent years, we've seen some queer spaces, including queer bookstores closing.

So, beyond what I just said, you know, are there any additional reasons you think that's happening?

Greg Newton

I mean, yeah, obviously the Internet has just changed everything, and smartphones have changed everything. There's so many ways to connect, which is great.

I mean, especially during COVID, we saw how important those tools were when we couldn't gather in person.

But obviously, we feel it's so important to be able to gather in person, to connect in person, face to face, unmediated. Nobody's filtering it, nobody's trying to direct you in one way or another.

It's just you come in and you you navigate the space as you see fit, and you talk to people you want to talk to.

So, yeah, I think there have been, there have been so many reasons why these spaces have closed.

I mean, in addition to the things we've mentioned, big box, bookstores, the internet, Amazon, eBooks, all of that, also assimilation.

I mean, a lot of there are plenty of LGBTQ people who are who want just to be part of the mainstream. 

And I understand the desire to belong, but I think that is an unfortunate choice, to not see what's special about us, to not connect to our history and say, No, we're not just like everybody else.

If we were, we wouldn't have founded these spaces and organizations in the first place. You know, the mainstream culture has defined us originally as as a disease, as a pathology.

And that history lingers on. It's not like that was, you know, a thousand years ago.

That started over a hundred years ago, and the pathologization, the criminalization of queer people, you know, that continues, obviously, in as we are seeing a resurgence of that today.

So, it's so important for us to have our own spaces where we're, we're talking directly to each other, unmediated. It's not about some big corporation making money off of us, it's us with each other, and that's so important.

Donnie Jochum

I want to say in general, too, to add that what we need to remember, those coming after us, those who've gone before us, and the generational baton passing.

A lot of businesses have closed because the owners started them and did them their entire lives. And then after 40 years, you're ready to retire. You've done your service to the community.

And so, if it isn't a business model that can be sold to pass it on to another generation, it is a, it's not a business model that seems sustainable in the face of different industry dynamics, then, like a bar or a bookstore or any store, retail, if you will, business, it's inevitable that it will close.

And I think that as the generation turned over, you know, Giovanni's Room in Philadelphia, the bookstore in Boston, Oscar Wilde, these were generations that started these, you know, community hubs for gathering and activism when there were, we basically had no rights, and continued them, because bookstores became the thing.

And so, I think that's another reason why some of our businesses are disappearing, or some of our spaces are disappearing, is because they've been supported, and they need to be handed off.

So, we're asking younger generation to keep that in mind, to create your spaces, the work that is involved.

And maybe, if you want a space to stay alive, become more involved and see how you can carry it on when the time comes for the founders, if you will, for lack of better words to say, I'm ready for the next life journey. I've done this, you know, but we wanted to keep it going.

So, who's going to do that?

Greg Newton

Obviously, something we haven't mentioned that is major is the AIDS pandemic.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah.

Greg Newton

That killed off so many customers, so many people who would, who were participating in the culture, and then they were gone, they died.

So that's really important to remember in the closing of queer spaces, is so many people died because of the AIDS pandemic, and that had just a major effect. You know, how could it not?

Pandemics and Queer Community Hubs (33:59)

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And I think we see some of those dynamics repeat itself in the COVID-19 pandemic, which you had touched upon.

While many establishments were impacted by it, the pandemic did have a disproportionate impact on the LGBTQ+ community.

So, how did you overcome this and provide a sense of community to queer people in a virtual setting?

Greg Newton

Yeah. I mean, like everyone else, it just smacked us in the face, and nobody was ready for this. Nothing like this had ever happened to any of us. None of us were alive during the 1918 Spanish flu.

So, yeah, that was a lot. But for us at that point, the center wasn't charging us rent.

You know, the center charged us a low rent when we first moved in, in 2014, and then in 2018 they said, you know what? Just keep doing what you're doing. You don't need to pay us anything. We're we love what you're doing. Keep it up.

So, we didn't have to worry about that. You know, so many businesses had to keep paying rent while they were not doing any business, which, of course, you can only do that so long unless you have a trust fund, which neither of us have.

So, we didn't have to pay rent. We did still have to pay insurance, because we didn't know how long we were going to be closed. Nobody did, but that was our major expense.

And suddenly we had a lot of time on our hands, or I did, because I this is been my full-time, non-paying job from the beginning. So, you know, we were able to do a lot of online events.

I did have a someone help us start an online store. So, you know, that made it possible for us to keep doing things, to stay connected to some degree, at least.

And, yeah, not having to pay rent was, was major. You know, we could just continue to exist online and not have to worry about that. So, yeah, that was that was, then we were very grateful for the tech.

You know, even though our main goal was about having a physical, real-time, real space connection, here we were saying, oh, okay, well, now these tools are really useful. Let's use them. They're here. So, yeah, that's how we made it through.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah. And I think the silver lining in that moment was that it provided the opportunity to test and trial, connect to a global community, which has continued to this day.

So, if the event organizers want to live stream, we can do that so audiences can dial in from anywhere to events, if that's part of the experience.

And then we also have this tremendous library of videos recorded from our events since we started doing that.

So now, for longevity purposes, our YouTube channel is a library of cultural events that if anybody wants to research and go back and look, they're they're there.

Greg Newton

Yeah, we can we, we now say to anyone who's organizing an event with us, do you want to live stream it? And I would say 90% of them say yes.

So yeah, we have this massive archive that really began during COVID of videos that are on our YouTube channel. So that was, that was a nice thing that came out of of the COVID period.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome to have that level of accessibility, even still, post-COVID, just because geographical factors.

It's, you know, obviously cities are more liberal places, but right now, we're seeing a lot of fear, a lot of division.

So, it's great that people who may not typically reside in those more accepting areas can still access these materials, these people to kind of reaffirm their identity.

Queer Spaces in the Current Political Climate (37:49)

Rob Loveless

And going off of that, unfortunately, we do have to kind of go into this little downer of a question. How has the current political climate affected queer spaces like The Bureau?

Greg Newton

You know, it's maddening. It's It's so frustrating to be where we are. It's insane. I can't believe we're here, and yet, here we are.

On the other hand, Donnie and I, I was born in 70, Donnie was born in 69. We grew up during the the worst of the AIDS crisis. We were in high school, so we were just kind of coming into figuring out. 

Donnie, it was a little easier. I was raised by evangelical Christians, so that did a number on me.

But yeah, we were growing up in a very hostile environment, just because the AIDS crisis was so focused on gay men. I mean, of course, also intravenous drug users, originally, also a focus on Haiti, people from Haiti, but predominantly in the public imagination, it was gay men.

And so, we were already a kind of despised minority, and now it was just like on steroids.

So, as we consider this moment, we remember, okay, we've been through some pretty tough shit, not just us personally, but us as a community.

And then if you look before the gay liberation movement, I mean, the 50s and 60s, going back further and further. You know, there's a lot of very horrific things that we've made it through.

So, we try and keep that in mind. Like, this isn't the first time. This is not new. We've made it through before. And not to minimize what's happening. It's real, it's awful.

But let's, let's keep some perspective is, is what we tell ourselves and what we tell others. And also, we remind each other, like, you know, we don't have to think about the orange clown every day.

I hate to even bring it up. We try, I never say its name, but I remind people like we can talk about other things. You know, it's not, it's not that we're denying the reality that's happening.

But we need breaks. We need pleasure. We need joy. We need to fight the good fight, and then we need to have some fun, and we need to remind ourselves that this isn't everything.

That this too shall pass and and give each other strength and find pleasure wherever we can, and grab it and cherish it. I feel like that's something we've learned from those who've come before us.

I mean, people fighting during the AIDS crisis, they many people didn't know if they would live another year, and they were busy as activists, but they also partied.

You know, they would go from being activists in the street to going to a dance party at night.

And so, I feel like that's such an important legacy that we've, that we've learned from is you gotta have joy. You gotta laugh.

You gotta not let this take over your your mind space. Don't let them, you know, take over your mind.

Favorite Moments at BGSQD (41:19)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And kind of segueing out of that to try to leave us on a more positive note. What have been some of your favorite moments or events at The Bureau that give you hope for the future?

Greg Newton

I mean, one of my favorite moments was when we were still at Strange Loop.

We someone approached us about doing a film series, and this guy, who we didn't know at all, connected us with some really great people, and one of whom was Genesis Breyer P-Orridge.

I don't know if you know Genesis. They died a few years ago. They were in a band, a noise industrial band in Britain called Throbbing Gristle.

So, they're kind of a counter-cultural hero, and they came and introduced a film by Derek Jarman. Derek Jarman, the incredible gay filmmaker from from Britain, made such films as Edward II.

Genesis introduced the film Sebastian, which, if you haven't seen it, I totally recommend it. That came out, was that the 70s? Or might have been early 80s. I need to look that up.

Anyway, it's a crazy film about Saint Sebastian and having Genesis, who knew Derek Jarman.

Derek Jarman did die of AIDS during the pandemic, but having Genesis, this total counter-cultural icon, introduced the film, and Genesis knew Derek Jarman, I mean, that was just amazing.

That was such, such a cool moment.

Donnie Jochum

I'm thinking about, well, a big moment for us, besides what Greg has already shared, I already mentioned everything at Strange Loop Gallery that was continual future vision, hope, fun, community.

In our current space, Liz Collins, artist Liz Collins did this massive installation, cast of characters. Beautiful exhibition, carpeted wallpaper, brought in some furniture, over 100 artists, phenomenal summer show. 

A lot of press and attention, but it was just beautiful, and it was fun. It was playful.

Greg Newton

Yeah.

Donnie Jochum

And so that, that to me, those are my favorite moments. When we we started in the space, our opening event, we hosted the artist Gio Black Peter.

And surprise, surprise. Gio Black Peter had part of his performance at the front of the room where two, two participants pissed on him...

Greg Newton

While he was reading.

Donnie Jochum

While he was reading a poem, and we didn't know that was going to happen, I don't think.

And it was just like, oh yeah. So, it's moments, moments of surprise like that that are for me, keep me going, give me hope.

Get, show me the creativity and the vision, and that remind me that we do not have to be part of this system. We can create our own channels and avenues for expression and gathering.

We don't need permission. We never have, and to go back to Greg's point, I grew up in the South. I grew up in New Orleans. My incredible family, I had a different upbringing.

Didn't have internet, didn't have social media, didn't have mobile devices, didn't have a way. It was bars and bookstores and spaces and gathering with your friends to find other people. It was so random.

And that's the thing, is the randomness that you know...

Greg Newton

Gives you opportunities.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then the other, the other thing I would say is that you know HomoCats. If you don't know HomoCats, Jay Morrison, look him up on Instagram.

Greg Newton

Brooklyn-based artist who we've known pretty much from the beginning.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, playful, political activist messages with cat imagery. Phenomenal work. He is going to be our next exhibition in the space.

And every time we've ever engaged in anything with him, it's always just fun and it's also serious and it's activism, but you've got to keep that element of passion going and remind yourself to find your points of connection.

So, to anyone out there, like I grew up in the South, if you feel like you don't have a connection, if you feel like you can't express yourself truly right now because of what's happening in the world around you are in this country, you've got to remember that at some point you will be able to go and do what you want to do.

It just may not be right now. I mean, that's something we had to live with in the '80s into the '90s. Of like, I may not be doing what I want to do right now because of limitations, but at some point, I will be able to do it. I just have to find that.

Finding Your Community (46:21)

Rob Loveless

And what words of encouragement do you have for anyone struggling to find their community within the LGBTQ+ community?

Greg Newton

This can be really tough. I know from personal experience. You know, when I finally said I was done with the Christian upbringing I had, that, you know, that really taught me to hate myself.

When I got rid of that, I thought, like, Oh, I'm free. And then I realized, like, okay, but I still have the scars and and it's not so easy for me to connect.

You know, when you've when you face that kind of rejection from your own parents and the communities you grow up in, it's really hard to trust people after that.

You know, you're really wounded and scarred. So, I know that's hardly unique to me. That's something that so many people experience.

So, the main thing I like to say to people is A, be kind to yourself and give yourself space and time. You don't have to figure everything out right now.

That's something I really am happy to see developing with younger generations, is that there's not this, there's not one way to be gay.

You know, in many ways, I felt like, oh, that's the way to be gay, and I'm not good at it. So, I'm not, you know, I'm an outcast again.

I'm not only am I an outcast from the main world, the straight world, but I'm also an outcast from the gay world.

So, I'm happy to see now it feels like there's so many more options that kids can say they're queer, and that can mean so many different things.

They don't have to, you know, know exactly where they're going or what their identity means. There's more openness in space, and I think that's a wonderful thing.

But the main thing I would say to people who are looking for community and connection is ask yourself what, what gives you joy? What gives you pleasure?

Find out, find groups that are related to those activities, you know.

So, you're connecting with people on a level that that you feel excitement and passionate about already, and where you're not just focused on, am I going to find a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a lover, or, you know, you're you're doing bird watching, or whatever it is that you are excited about.

So, I think that's really important.

Episode Closing (48:44)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, the King of Cups. Again, this card is the perfect balance between head and heart. We let ourselves feel the feelings.

We know how to process them, and we know how to turn them into strategic action forward so we can achieve our goals and engage those along the way. And I think the work Greg and Donnie are doing is a perfect example of that.

You know, they have talked about the origins of The Bureau and how it's gone from a pop-up location to the community hub it is today.

They noticed a gap in the sense of community building with a lack of a local queer bookstore.

And instead of ruminating on the doom and gloom over that, they instead took their passions and turned that into a full-fledged business that is giving back to the LGBTQ+ community all these years later. 

And even throughout major challenges like the COVID-19 pandemic, they did not let their fear or worry get the best of them.

Instead, they turned it into inspired action and found ways to create online events and conversations so that way they could engage members of community during that time of isolation and even past the pandemic.

For those who may not live in cities and may feel isolated just by where their geographical region is, they can still access the resources and support they need through a virtual setting.

And beyond Greg and Donnie just achieving their dreams and their goals through this, they've also engaged the community and given back in such a major way throughout their careers.

And I think it really is a testament for ourselves that as we're looking at the current political climate, there is a lot of fear and there is a lot of concern and worry.

And we definitely need to let ourselves feel that and give ourselves time to process that and grieve those losses. But at the end of the day, we can't let that grief consume us forever.

Like Greg said, we do still need to make time to find joy, whether that's in a personal way or something larger that gives back to the LGBTQ+ community.

So, take some time to make sure that your head and heart are balanced as we move forward in life, whether it's our day-to-day lives, our relationships, our career pursuits, or even our advocacy work. 

Because whenever we take strategic action and allow ourselves to feel queer joy, that's a win for our community and a major way to give back to others during this difficult time.

Connect with BGSQD (50:38)

Rob Loveless

Well, Greg, Donnie, thank you so much for coming on today. This was a great episode. Can you tell the listeners where they can learn more about you and also support The Bureau?

Greg Newton

Yeah, you can go to our website, which is BGSQD.com. Those five letters our name, Bureau of General Services—Queer Division, so BGSQD.com.

On Instagram @BGSQD. And if you go to our website, BGSQD.com, you can see about upcoming events. You can see how to donate and support us. There's a lot to take in there.

And then our YouTube channel, which is youtube.com/@BGSQD, you can see all those past videos, we mentioned that huge archive of past events.

Donnie Jochum

Yeah, and I think we want to just, I want to close with you have to participate in some way, whether that is coming into the space. You purchase a zine or a book or don't. Donating, if you can, when you can.

So, we just want to remind everyone that participation is needed to keep something alive and driving that home.

So, one of the effects, current effects, is funding through the federal administration is having a downstream effect for all, all organizations, including us.

So, we really want to drive home the point, if you want to support us, if you can't be here locally for whatever reason.

And you can give through Fractured Atlas to The Bureau of General Services—Queer Division, and it is tax-deductible. So that we have non-profit sponsorship through Fractured Atlas, so...

Greg Newton

And all that's on the website.

Go to the menu on the website, you can click on Donate, and you'll see how you can sign up to become a monthly donor, which would be the best option, because that gives us continual support, even if it's $5 a month, $10 a month.

But you can also make a one-time donation there. So, there are lots of ways to support us, and we hope you know, we want to pass this project on to a younger generation, so that it continues beyond us.

Rob Loveless

And all that information will be in the show notes, so definitely check it out after you're done listening.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (53:00)

Rob Loveless

And for the podcast, you know the drill. Any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

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Mmm-bye.