158. Leaving a Narcissist (with Mack Ciccone)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Mack Ciccone

He was very charming. He was very loving. He was very affectionate. He would say the right things all the time.

He wouldn't do the right things, but he would say the right things.

Episode Introduction (0:30)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless, and today, I am a jaded gay because I've been painting my cabinets for what feels like a month.

You know, I'm always looking to do a little home improvement DIY project. And my cabinets, they're not bad. I like the layout of them. It's just the color. They're very dated. They look very 90s.

So, my friend told me about this cabinet paint that it's no primer, no sanding, no staining, you just paint. Found a color I like. It's called Weathervane.

It's like this nice, like dark gray, with like a navy hue to it, so it gives it just enough pop of color. And it does look great. The only thing is, my cabinets are wood, and they just drink it up.

So instead of doing two coats like normal, I had to do three. And I'm still doing the doors, because I have to do three coats on the front, three coats on the back. I have limited space to lay it out.

I also didn't realize the cure time is, like, 30 days, so I can't put anything back in my cabinets yet, because I've done that already, and it's kind of pulled off some paint in a few areas that I had to touch up.

So overall, it's looking great, and I'm glad I did the color. It's just taking forever. Like I started it, it'll be two weeks to Sunday since I started it.

And all my cabinet contents are just, at first, they were all in my dining room.

Now, luckily, they're all contained to my countertops, because I don't have to worry about paint dripping on the counters anymore. And I just want it to be done.

I want to clean my house. I want to sweep my floors. I want to put things in the cabinets. I don't want to have my cabinet doors just locked in my one bathroom.

So, I can't really use my laundry room either, because they're in the way. It's just, it's a lot. So, needless to say, I'm just trying to persevere and get done with that.

Narcissism (2:12)

Rob Loveless

And while I'm painting my cabinets to cover up the old 90s appearance, one thing we can't cover up is we've all probably encountered some narcissists in dating.

Now, a few years back, one episode we covered was about love bombing, which is a specific technique done by narcissists.

And when people hear the term narcissism, they, of course, think of somebody who's very conceited with a big ego, who thinks very highly of themselves.

And that's not completely accurate regarding what narcissism looks like. You know, narcissistic behavior really deals more with manipulation and psychological tactics, and in relationships, it can be really detrimental to your emotional health.

So, I'm very excited to have a special guest joining us today to talk about his experiences in a narcissistic relationship of about two years, how he moved on from that, and how he's learned to cope since then. 

So, we'll be getting into it shortly, but before we do, you know the drill. Let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (3:08)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the Page of Cups. As you'll remember, Cups is tied to the element of water. It's feminine energy, so it's very reflective and meditative in nature.

And Cups is all about our emotions, and you can think of it flowing freely like water. Also, pages are the first card to appear in the court cards. So, there's a juvenile and childish energy attached to this card.

And not so much childish in terms of immature, but kind of like that childlike sense of wonder, where everything is still exciting and unknown because you're experiencing it for the first time.

It's the eleventh card in the suit of Cups. So, when we add that together, we get two, which is tied to partnership, duality, and choice.

And when we draw this Page of Cups, it's symbolic of emotional intelligence. This card is telling us that we're open to receiving new messages in life because we feel confident and secure in our identity.

Still, the Page of Cups invites us to be open-minded and curious and always willing to explore new facets of ourselves.

And this card often appears when we need to trust our intuition in order to navigate situations where we may be receiving a multitude of messages.

Guest Introduction (4:10)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I'm very excited to welcome our next guest.

Now, just to preface ahead of time, this episode does touch upon the topic of mental health, suicide ideation, and attempted suicide.

So, if those are sensitive topics, you may want to fast forward past those parts or skip this episode altogether.

But with that in mind, let's get into the episode. He is the author of two Medium articles documenting his experiences in a narcissistic relationship.

Please welcome Mack Ciccone. Hi, Mac. How are you today?

Mack Ciccone

I'm great. How are you?

Rob Loveless

Doing well, thanks. Just keeping busy on Saturday here. So, I always tell myself I'm going to have kind of quiet weekends to relax, but then I end up getting in like five different projects. So, never a dull moment.

Mack Ciccone

That sounds a lot like me. I assume that I'm going to relax, and then things start piling up, and next thing you know, it's Monday again.

Rob Loveless

Right? It seems like there's that never-ending checklist, and you just want to get it all done during the weekend, because it's like your main time to focus, and then the weekend's over, Monday comes, and you're like, did I remember to like, relax this weekend?

Mack Ciccone

Yep, that's exactly the same. And I have an 11-month-old puppy that will not let me relax. So...

Rob Loveless

That's a commitment. That's a lot of energy there.

Mack Ciccone

Yes, he does. I wish I had half the energy he does.

Rob Loveless

Well, I'm very excited to have you on to talk about a really important topic.

Before we get into that, you know, I prefaced it a little bit at the top, but can you take a minute to kind of just introduce yourself to listeners, tell them a little bit about yourself, how you identify, your backgrounds, pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Mack Ciccone

Sure. My name is Mack Ciccone. I'm a gay man. I'm 46, almost 47. I cannot believe I just admitted that. I'm he/him, and I live in California.

Rob Loveless

And there's a beautiful background right now. When we started recording, I had to ask Mack if it was real or virtual, because it just looks so picturesque. So, I'm very jealous of your setting.

Mack Ciccone

It's very hot, but yeah, it's just beautiful out here. I love that's one of the things I love about California. You get the desert, you get the beach, you get snow in the wintertime, you have a little bit of everything.

Rob Loveless

Seems like a perfect oasis.

Mack Ciccone

It is, except for the traffic.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. Well, before we get into it, I do like to ask all my guests today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay and why?

Mack Ciccone

I'm kind of like in the middle, maybe. I think this last relationship, which, you know, we're going to talk about, left me a little bit more on the jaded side, a little bit, you know, more on the cynical, I guess, but more discerning.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. And as difficult as those situations are, I know it sounds cliche, but I do like to think that every bad dating scenario has some sort of lesson to learn from it to kind of put us on a better path forward.

Mack Ciccone

I totally agree with it. And if it hadn't, as ironic as it may sound, if it hadn't been for this very painful experience, which is really one of the most, it's actually my first true heartbreak, other than, you know, losing my cat a couple of years ago.

But it's my first true relationship-related heartbreak. It's the most painful experience I've had, but I've learned a lot about myself, which, you know, we'll discuss later.

Yeah, so in retrospect, I think I finally learned the lessons that the universe was trying to has been trying to teach me for the last, I don't know how many years,

Rob Loveless

A while back, I think it was the first few episodes of the podcast, we had covered the topic of love bombing, which is tied a little bit to narcissism, and specifically, more so, the act within narcissism.

I've always wanted to kind of go back to the topic of narcissism as a whole. So, I was glad you reached out. You recently had a couple Medium articles published about being in a relationship with a narcissist. 

So, we're going to dive all into that today. So, just kind of kicking it off. Can you share how the relationship began and what initially drew you to him?

Mack Ciccone

Yeah. So, one thing I want to say, you know, about narcissism first, before I kind of we do the deep dive, is that when we hear the word, we just think about somebody who's very vain and self-centered, but it's actually much more than that.

And if you know, once you do the research, which unfortunately I did, after the fact, you realize that it's a it's a maladaptive personality disorder, and it's very damaging, and, you know, there's a lot of emotional abuse tied to it.

Our relationship actually began pretty much like most gay relationships do on Scruff. It's funny because I wasn't planning on meeting him when I did, but things happened and realigned, and when it was supposed to be a one-off.

And he, you know, after we became intimate, we just laid there and talking, and he opened up to me, which I found very refreshing, and talking about his childhood and things like that, and I could relate to that, because I had a similar childhood when it came to physical and emotional abuse, and I found that very refreshing.

So, I guess we trauma bonded that day, and right then and there, I asked him if he wanted to go on a date, which we did right after.

One of the things that he, you know, he opened up to me about a number of things, including that he had been in adult entertainment in the past, and we were together for two years.

Rob Loveless

And looking back, were there early red flags or moments that felt too good to be true?

Mack Ciccone

I don't know if moments that were too good to be true. Everything felt wonderful. I was, I've always been a romantic at heart, very affectionate, which, you know, I welcomed.

But the red flags definitely were there. I just chose to overlook them. There were a lot of angry outbursts on his part, including an episode of physical violence in public, where he shoved me to the ground, and the next day, I forgave him.

And I just felt, ultimately, I felt responsible for everything that happened in their relationship, for all the red flags. And it took a lot for me to come out of it and realize that it wasn't really my fault.

Love Bombing (7:31)

Rob Loveless

And going back to the concept of love bombing, it's typically described as when you're lavishing someone with attention and affection to manipulate them.

So, did you experience this kind of behavior early on? And if so, how did it show up?

Mack Ciccone

Absolutely, he was extremely affectionate, but there was also a jealousy component to that.

He would tell me things that like I was the love of his life very early on, that I was the most amazing man he had ever met, that I was, and I'm quoting almost verbatim what he would say, and that I was the first man that he had ever loved, fully and completely.

And as someone that wanted that I was, I just fell for it. I bought it. And, you know, I didn't think of it as love bombing. To be honest, I was not terribly familiar with what love bombing was.

It wasn't until after their relationship ended and I started researching into narcissism and things like that, that I came to realize, oh, that's what was happening.

He was very affectionate at the beginning, and then towards the devaluation stage, then it was a mix of love bombing and then devaluating, love bombing, devaluating.

But yeah, he was he was very charming. He was very loving. He was very affectionate. He would say the right things all the time. He wouldn't do the right things, but he would say the right things.

Rob Loveless

And was there a moment where you realized, oh, wow, this attention isn't as genuine as I thought; it's more so conditional?

Mack Ciccone

After the fact. During I just, I really enjoyed the attention, to be honest, his attention rather. I just felt, oh my God, and, you know, as a more dominant guy, myself and him identifying more as a subtype, I thought that this was kind of like the normal dynamic.

I did, I did enjoy it a lot, and I never for a minute thought that I was conditional. I felt that I was very genuine. Unfortunately, came to find out later that there were strings attached.

There was an episode last year when I had just returned from a trip, and I went through a very deep depressive episode, mostly related to as I was landing, and I got this barrage of texts from him just accusing me of all these things that I didn't do.

And from that moment on, I went through a period of really deep depression, and he sort of became my not caregiver, per se, but he was very, seemed to be very supportive.

Then ultimately that came an excuse for him to say that the reason why we had stopped being intimate, being we had, you know, stopped having sex and or the sex wasn't as intense as it was before was because he switched from lover mode to caregiver mode, and it made it seem like I had been, you know, as if I was crippled, that I couldn't do anything on my own, which, which isn't true.

I never stopped functioning. I still went to work. I still was a responsible person. It was just an excuse for him to do things that I came to find out later on.

Narcissism and Manipulation (13:50)

Rob Loveless

Definitely.

And as you're talking through that, to me, one thing that's jumping out is how there was kind of this twisting of your situation, where you might explain where you're coming from, and then your ex would kind of exaggerate the situation.

So maybe you said you needed something, and it was more so like, well, now I need a caregiver for you when that wasn't what you were specifically asking for.

And it brings up for me in that situation I've been in again, it wasn't two years, was a month and a half, but I really found that I I was confused because I felt like I couldn't break through when I couldn't break through, and I was trying to have a conversation with him.

And normally, that's not something I struggle with. You know, I would try to explain where I was coming from, and suddenly it was just like, from one extreme to the other.

You know, if I said, like, you know, doing something at this time doesn't work for me, the response was, Well, you're inflexible. You know, the I always have to do this for you. Blah, blah, blah.

Where really it was just one situation I was bringing up that then became a label for myself.

So, as you were going through that and having some of those communication struggles and trying to assert some boundaries around what, you know, about, around the dynamic, how did he react to that?

Mack Ciccone

Every time I would have, I would try to have a conversation or assert a boundary, he will become very defensive.

There was a point in our relationship where we started experimenting sexually, because really, the bed, it was dead in the bedroom.

And we had established that, you know, we started bringing a third here and there, and we had established the boundaries and the ground rules, sort of like, okay, we're going to take care of each other first, and then, you know, bring in a third.

But we have to make sure that our needs are met. That we meet each other's needs before we bring a third.

So, there was what time that we had someone over and we both, you know, had a great time with this person, and we had that person over again, and all of a sudden, we're in bed, and he's telling this guy, oh, well, I have to go to work, but you can stay here with, you know, with me, with Mack.

And basically, he was offering away my entire weekend without consulting me. So, when I tried to, you know, pulled him aside, and it's like, hey, you know, I have plans with my friends for the weekend.

I just want to relax as well. It was sort of like, oh, well, I can't do anything right.

And that was one of the many examples of things that I would try to have a conversation with him, and it would either turn into him very, getting very defensive and saying that he couldn't do anything right, or, oh, well, I did this because you did that.

There was never any accountability. And the times when he would either apologize or pretend to take accountability, then five minutes later, then it was all my fault.

So, everything became that vicious circle of having trying to have a conversation, him getting defensive, then coming back and apologizing, then, oh, well, it's your fault. I did that because you did this.

If that makes sense.

Rob Loveless

It does, yeah. And were there times where your feelings were dismissed or used against you?

Mack Ciccone

Yes, especially towards the end. I got an ultimatum sometime last year. He said that open no rules or nothing.

So, I chose what I thought was going to be the lesser of two evils, which is open. I've always been monogamy oriented, and this was the first relationship where we introduced, I introduced the concept of playing with a third, which I'm not gonna lie, I enjoyed.

But then open relationship is not something that I envision myself in, and I, mad respect for anyone who's in an open relationship. I don't judge. It's just something that doesn't work for me.

And he would I grew up in a society where the standard of beauty was very specific, and if you don't fit that standard, then you would be considered unattractive, which is something that I struggled with my entire life.

So, he would always point out at guys that didn't look anything like me, even though he would say, Oh, you're 100% my type.

And even the person that he was cheating on me with and whom he's with now does not look anything like me. He would always do that, when I would point it out, it was, Oh, you're 100% my type.

You're 100% my type. And there was always an excuse. Also, saying when we would have issues, and he would start having hookups and things, he would say that his, that the way he would, I guess, deal with heartbreak or hurt was by being hyper sexual, and he knew that that was something that would hurt me, so he would definitely be out there, being the community, whatever, for, you know, the entire city, knowing that that that was something that would hurt me.

And even after the breakup, he would message my best friend, telling him about his sexcapades, thinking that my best friend would then tell me, yeah.

So, there were, there were many instances of that, and that was one of the ways that he would keep me, sort of dangling the carrot in front of me.

Rob Loveless

And I think you kind of touched upon it in your answer there. But how did the dynamic shift from feeling loved to feeling controlled or diminished?

Mack Ciccone

It would start; it started with everything being turned against me. It was my fault to the point that I became the abuser, so to speak.

And I questioned post breakup and even during the relationship, if I was actually the narcissist, if I was actually an abuser, and that was one of the reasons why I tried committing suicide, because I could not bring myself to believe that I was this horrible person that was hurting the person I loved.

So, it slowly turned. Initially, we would have, let's say, a disagreement about something. One of those disagreements I remember was I had a bit of a following on Instagram before I deactivated my social media, and I posted a picture, and this guy replied, commented a woof.

And I just, you know, on Instagram, you heart something as a thank you, that to me, that was saying thank you without engaging the person.

Well, that became a point of contention between us, and all of a sudden, I was taking I was my quote-unquote fans were more important than he was. So, things like that slowly started happening.

There was another incident where we were celebrating a milestone of his, which I was very, very proud of. He went to the restroom.

While he was in the restroom, these two gentlemen approached me and say, hey, I follow your Instagram. Can we take a selfie with you? I was like, Sure. Why not?

I don't like being rude to people in general. I don't believe in that. And then we were out.

We went to another bar, and the guys walked by, and they waved hi, and I waved hi, and they stopped to chat for a minute.

I introduced him to these two guys, and chatted for like a minute, and then they went on their way, and all of a sudden, I ruined his milestone event.

So slowly, every single thing that would happen would be there will be an exaggeration or a complete fabrication or a combination of both, but then it will come, it will come, the love bombing.

And I was, again, the most amazing man, and I was the love of his life.

And then something would happen, and this will be almost on a weekly basis, then something would happen, I will be labeled as the most horrible person in the world.

Then the love bombing again, and it was a vicious cycle for two years.

Rob Loveless

I'm sure. And I think the key takeaway there is, obviously, no relationship is perfect.

There's going to be moments where you know, the person you're dating is the apple of your eye, and then other moments where you're really frustrated or annoyed with them.

But I think the key distinction with love bombing is it's very much from one end of the spectrum to the next. Very quickly.

It goes from you're the most amazing all these things to then, like, insulting and critiquing, where it's not even just, you know, hey, this is rubbing me the wrong way, or I'm a little frustrated, like, we need to talk. 

It's this is a problem with you. This is a major fault. This is a major red flag. And it's like, how did we swing from me going to this amazing person to being this terrible of a person?

Like, where does the truth lie in there? Am I really this bad? Are you ignoring things about me? Or are you just shifting based on the day of how your mood is on whether I'm a good person or not?

Mack Ciccone

Exactly. And you know that really took a toll on me, because it literally was like that. It was from one end of the spectrum to the other. There really was no no middle ground.

And again, I came to believe that I was this horrible monster. But then, when I would say, well, you're painting me as a villain, you're painting me as the most horrible person, oh no, no, no, that's not what I said.

So, there was a lot of gaslighting, and there was a lot of I started questioning my reality, and there were things that even you know, about a month or so ago, I got this very nasty email from him, just sort of like saying all of these things that I supposedly had done.

And there were things that he outlined there, like me calling him disgusting, which is not something that I would ever say to anyone that I love, or not a word that I would use against anyone that I that I care about, friends, you know, especially someone that I was in love with.

Also, there was a time where the love bombing came that he would every single story or post that I would have on Instagram, there'll be a comment and things like that.

And I'm like, Baby, you know, you don't have to comment on everything. You have me. Well, all of a sudden, I I told him that he was a supposedly a pathetic fan, which is, which is not, not any term that I would use.

And when I was on Instagram, I would appreciate everyone that followed me, because why would they?

I mean, you know, it was very, it's very interesting to see the how his reality, he lives in a completely different world.

And and it baffles me how someone is able to really make up all of these things and expect the other person to believe them.

I can tell you with certainty that you know you're pathetic or you disgust me, are not things that came out of my mouth, even though he says they did, they were.

Narcissism’s Emotional Impact (25:19)

Rob Loveless

And it's difficult, because there's so much confusion around that, like you said, going from the one extreme to the next in such a rapid time frame, where you you know in your mind, everything could have been fine, then all of a sudden, everything's not okay.

And that there's these claims that you've said or did things that you don't remember doing, and you think, Am I just like blanking?

Did I do this, and I don't realize my own words or my own behaviors, or is somebody making something up?

So understandably, it can cause a lot with you know, it can really impact your self-worth and your mental health. I know you did touch upon your attempted suicide.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what impacts this had on your self-worth and your emotions?

Mack Ciccone

It had an impact overall, even on my physical health. I'm never sick, and even if I got sick, it would last maybe a day. I would rarely, if ever, call out from work.

And during the last two years, I called out a lot because I was sick a lot. So, it definitely took a toll on my physical health, but also, I was in a year-long depression where I all I wanted to do was sleep.

I would get home from work and off to bed I was. It would be 7 am, 7 pm, sorry, and I would go to sleep just because I didn't want to deal with life anymore.

And it wasn't, you know, with suicide, it wasn't people hear about suicide attempts like, Oh my God, he's so dramatic. He's manipulating. And there may be some people that do it for those reasons.

But overall, anyone who attempts suicide, or anyone who is successful, it's not because they want to die, per se.

It's because they're going through some sort of emotional pain that the only way to escape is, I don't want to say death, but really ceasing to exist.

I became it, definitely took a big toll on my self-esteem. I felt inferior to him, to everybody else. I felt that I didn't measure up. I just became a shell of who I used to be.

I used to be very outgoing, always laughing, always making each other laugh, and I was even, you know, people at work noticed the change, and I just became a completely different person overall.

Ending Things with a Narcissist (27:50)

Rob Loveless

How did the relationship ultimately end, and was it something you initiated?

Mack Ciccone

It was something I initiated. This was after I was given the ultimatum of being open, and we had been open for a few months.

I found some very explicit pictures and videos, and I confronted him about it. He said that they were for him.

Come to find out that these were things that he sent to the guy he had been cheating on me with, and that two, three weeks after the relationship ended, he was already in love and officially, and they were social media official.

And I just said that I couldn't do it anymore, that I didn't trust him. There were many instances, there were many instances, there were many things that happened that made me lose trust in him.

There was a big, big issue that happened, and back in 2023 where he reached out to this person that he had been enamored with, and when I found out and confronted him about it, he continued to lie straight to my face, so the trust was gone.

And when I found the very explicit pictures, and I confronted him about it, and he lied, I'm like, I can't do this anymore. I can't trust you.

I cannot be with someone that I don't trust, which, when you are with someone with narcissistic personality disorder, that is one of the worst things that you can do for yourself, because then it plays into their victimhood narrative.

So, minutes after I said, we're done, we're no longer together, he started messaging people, telling them that I dumped him, and people that he wanted to hook up with, saying that, hey, are you free? Mack broke up, dumped me, you know.

So it was, it was very interesting to see how hard heartbroken, and I say that that was a sarcastic, heartbroken he was that he immediately started reaching out to people that he had been wanting to hook up with, and also telling people that I dumped him and that he had nowhere to go, and just again, playing into the whole victimhood game that they have going on, because narcissists are very good at a number of things, including lying and manipulating, but also at playing the victim, and that's how they reel people in.

Rob Loveless

Did he try to come back into your life afterward? And how did you handle that?

Mack Ciccone

I don't know if trying to come back into my life, per se, but he did keep dangling the carrot in front of me. I guess that at the time, he hadn't fully secured his next supply, which is, you know, narcissistic supply is a term that they use for, I guess, their next, I don't want to use the word victim, but for lack of a better term, victim.

He would send me emails full of, oh my God, you're you're the love of my life. I miss you. I miss your smell. I miss the way, the way you hold me.

And then I would reply, then he would reply back with something triggering to me. Then I would, and then it would start an argument. Then we would stop communicating.

The next time, he would send another email telling me how much he missed me and sending me pictures of us. I had deleted everything, so he would send me pictures of us when we were together.

And that happened for a while. It's what they call hoovering. They tried to Hoover you back in until he finally, you know, I guess, secured this next guy, and then it stopped.

Rob Loveless

What helped you begin to heal and rebuild after leaving?

Mack Ciccone

I have the most fantastic, amazing friends and support system. They were instrumental in my journey. My therapist has been very instrumental as well.

Ultimately, I had to really do a lot of self-reflection and really come to terms with one of the hardest things after ending things with a narcissist, is realizing that even though you really loved them and the love that you had for them was real, theirs for you was not.

So, having to come to terms with that was the most difficult thing, but ultimately the most liberating. And again, my support system, my friends, my therapist, have been instrumental, and I don't, and my dog.

I don't think that I could have done it without, without them, to be honest, because I was really just in a really deep depression.

Rob Loveless

What have you learned about yourself and your boundaries from this experience?

Mack Ciccone

I have learned a lot, actually. I am very firm in my boundaries now.

I have really become very intentional with the people I meet with, the people I talk to with, who I allow in my life, but also, I've re-examined my values and what I'm okay with, what I'm not okay with, and I become more assertive of my boundaries.

And I just started putting myself out there after a while, and kind of like talking to people and meeting people, and if somebody, if I start seeing some of the red flags, I immediately just pull away, because I'm not going to allow myself to, number one, put myself through a similar situation, and number two, I am not going to settle for less than what I deserve.

So, it's allowed me to learn to love myself as well and to realize my value, what I bring to the table.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And as we're coming to the end of this episode, what would you say to someone who thinks they might be in a similar relationship?

Mack Ciccone

Don't allow yourself to be gaslit. Trust your gut and rely on your support system.

Those are the main things that, yeah, I think it's really important to have people around you that will have your back and that will help you see that you're not the bad one.

I mean, we're all listen, we're all human. I'm not saying that I'm perfect. I'm not saying that I didn't make mistakes during their relationship.

I did, but not to the extent of cheating or lying or anything like that, but just, you know, the usual stuff that one does when when you're in a relationship.

Oh, you know, I didn't do the laundry or, you know, that number of things. So, build a strong support system. Therapy definitely, and learn about narcissists.

That was a big eye-opener for me when I started listening to Dr. Ramani.

There are a number of resources out there where you can learn about narcissists, narcissistic personality disorder, and how these type of relationships work. Arm yourself with knowledge, definitely.

And never call out a narcissist, because that is the worst thing that you can do. Just slowly move away and no contact.

Episode Closing (35:37)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, the Page of Cups, again, this card is really symbolic of emotional intelligence and telling us that we are grounded in our identities.

We feel confident with who we are, and because of that, we are open to other messages from the universe.

We can be receptive of those messages without them shattering our foundation and having us double-guess who we are.

And as it relates to this episode, I think it's really important that whenever we're venturing into the dating pond that we are very secure in our identities.

You know, when I first started dating, I thought, Great, I'm out, I'm open, I can meet somebody, we'll hit it off, and get married. Not the case.

There are a lot of people that carry baggage with them, that don't approach emotional situations the same way we might, where we try to be fair and non-critical.

And there are narcissists out there who will take advantage of kindness and really try to manipulate somebody to have them second-guessing who they are and how they're showing up in a relationship.

So, of course, when we're dating somebody, if we're getting feedback about how we're showing up and how we're approaching certain things, we definitely need to be receptive of that.

However, when it comes to narcissism, we want to make sure that we are grounded in our identity and know our truth and the truth of how we are hoping to show up.

So that way we can stand our ground against a narcissist and not let them manipulate us and take advantage of us, and know when to implement those boundaries that narcissists will not respect.

So that way we can protect our own emotional well-being. Because again, along that path, obviously narcissists they like to discard.

So, the moment you stand up to them, odds are you'll be discarded.

But it's really important that we do that, because while it may be painful in those moments and confusing and scary, it ultimately sets us up to be on the path toward the right person who will meet us where we're at and appreciate us for the person that we are.

Connect with Mack (37:15)

Rob Loveless

Mack, thank you so much for joining us today. I know you want to keep some anonymity around your identity from this.

I was wondering, though, as we close out, normally, we'll have guests kind of plug their socials where they could be connected with.

With that in mind, I was wondering, I know you published a couple of Medium articles.

Can you tell listeners where they can access those articles, the titles of them, and any maybe additional resources you think are helpful in dealing with narcissistic partners?

Mack Ciccone

Absolutely. As for the Medium articles, one has to do with the narcissistic discard, sort of like the things that happened after the relationship ended, and the other one has to do with basically a little bit of background on how everything started and how it went.

There's a lot of good information out there, and there's a lot of misinformation. I would say, go to trusted resources. Dr. Ramani is the number one specialist when it comes to narcissistic personality disorder.

So definitely, her podcast, her YouTube videos. Those are I've definitely that will definitely be the number one source that I would tell people to go to.

Also on Medium, there are a number of writers that have written about narcissists, narcissistic relationships, so kind of like, browse through those.

Rob Loveless

And once you're done listening to this episode, definitely check out Mack's articles. I'll have them linked in the episode description. Really important.

And if you think that you may be experiencing narcissistic behavior and that you may be the victim of a narcissist, definitely check out the episode on love bombing.

That episode references a ton of resources that address narcissism in relationships, so it could be a really good starting point to kind of understand where you're at and where you can get help to move past the situation.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (39:00)

Rob Loveless

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Mmm-bye.