156. Punchlines and Pride: Activism Through Queer Comedy (with Michael John Ciszewski)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Michael John Ciszewski

Laughter unburdens shame, and shame is the very thing that sort of holds us as people back. Shame is darkness, laughter is light.

Episode Introduction (0:29)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay just because I am really burnt out.

It's been a busy month or so. I've been busy with work, grad school, podcasting, house stuff, just fighting with the city over them demolishing my street. You know that whole story.

And I'm just, it really feels like a lot lately. So that being said, I did want to just address this up front for a little bit of housekeeping.

I am going to take a little bit of a summer break, so there won't be any new episodes throughout July.

So, this will be the last episode before the little hiatus. Don't worry, I'll be back in August with brand-new episodes.

So, the podcast isn't going away, just taking a little summer break for myself to relax, refresh, and come back renewed.

And don't worry, there will still be new blog posts coming out in July, and there will be a bonus episode in July as well. So, I won't really be gone, because you can't really get rid of me.

Queer Comedy (1:26)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, from burning out to cracking up today, I am very excited to have a special guest on to end our Pride series for 2025.

You know, throughout Pride Month, the episodes we've covered, they've been heavier. Obviously, they've been more political focused. It's a weird time for Pride right now.

So, with that being said, I did want to kind of close out the month with a little bit of queer joy.

So, I think today's episode is really going to be a great blend of humor and using comedy as a strength to cope with the politics we're experiencing and also to push our movement forward.

So, we'll be getting into it shortly. But before we do, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (2:05)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the Nine of Swords in reverse. As you'll remember, Swords is tied to the element of air. It's masculine energy, so it's very action-oriented.

And Swords is tied to our thoughts, ideas, and the way we communicate. In numerology, nine means we're almost to the end of a cycle or chapter, but we still need to push a little harder to achieve that end. 

And when we draw the Nine of Swords in reverse, it's telling us that we may be feeling hopeless. Specifically, our fears and anxieties may be causing us to spiral and anticipate the worst-case scenario that may contradict reality.

And this inner turmoil may be preventing us from living our most authentic lives or achieving our fullest potential.

But fortunately, being number nine, this card is telling us that we're coming toward the end of this cycle of worry.

However, it's up to us to take action by seeking out our support systems, to keep our heads above water, and to find new perspectives that will give us hope.

Guest Introduction (2:59)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to welcome our next guest. He is a New York City-based queer comedian. Please welcome Michael John Ciszewski. Hi Michael. How are you today?

Michael John Ciszewski

Hi, Rob. I'm good. I'm trying to keep upright as we move through Pride Month. We're what?

On the second, we're recording this on the second weekend of Pride Month, which does mean that, like it's already taken a toll, and if I'm going to make it to the 30th, then I have to pace myself.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And on top of just all the Pride festivities, it's been a weird time in general, celebrating this year.

So, I think now more than ever, it's important that we find that queer joy and laughter through comedy to really kind of help power us forward as well.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it is a funny time to be in comedy because it's an outlet that people are really leaning on right now.

I mean, you know, in the sort of macro sense, with our queer community, this has been a really hard year so far, and I don't know that there's any real reprieve that we can anticipate or expect in sight.

And then on top of that, there are all of these other like just macro, global concerns that you know, of course, go beyond the queer community, but have incredible impact on us, and so, you know, it makes the project of finding and cultivating joy not only more important but also a little bit harder.

But that's, you know, we have to cultivate ease still, and we have to cultivate celebration, and that's what this month needs to be about, as much as it is about, you know, supporting our most marginalized and underserved siblings in the community.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And while it's still very scary what's going on and we do want to be aware, I mean, I think time has proven that queer people are resilient. We'll find a way to thrive.

And I think comedy is really a great tool to kind of poke fun at the scarier, heavier things, to help us process that.

So, with that in mind, I'd like to segue into all about you. To kick off the episode, can you tell all the listeners a little bit about yourself? How you identify, background, pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Michael John Ciszewski

Sure, yeah. Gosh. My name is Michael John Ciszewski. My pronouns are he/him/his. I am a gay comedian and storyteller and actor and producer based here in New York City.

I got my start lying to my family, you know, trying to convince them of lots and lots of things, including that I was straight for far too long. Jury is out on how well that worked because now it's irrelevant.

I primarily came up in improv, in you know, elementary school. My mother, who I'm sure I will talk about many, many, many times today, my mother, was incredibly supportive of all of my creative pursuits.

I grew up not far from Manhattan, so she would always take me to Broadway shows, and she would always encourage me to perform, whether it was in improv classes or clubs like extracurriculars.

And I grew up a very overweight kid, so for me too, comedy was an easy way to get through a little bit of social anxiety about my shape, my size, my identity.

As I got older, I started to find the right places for all of that energy. I got into theater. So, I came up for a while as a theater maker and as an actor.

You know, I did my time in musical theater in middle school and high school. I went to college up at BU for acting and playwriting.

And for a while there, I was convinced that, like I had to, you know, be taken seriously. And so, I put away the comedy hat for a little while, the dunce cap for a while.

But especially around the pandemic, I came back around to comedy because I did not want to work in any spaces that weren't giving me joy, and I did not want to work with telling stories that were not feeling like vital lifelines of joy to audiences anymore.

And so, my life journey brought me back to being a clown and being a comedian. And over the last, I guess now, eight years, I've cultivated a bunch of stand-up material playing clubs and theaters in Boston, where I used to live, and now New York.

Over that time period I've cultivated now three solo shows, um, the last of which, If Memory Serves, is a an hour of comedy about my getting sober, or, depending on how you look at it, it's an hour of comedy about being the biggest, drunkest mess I've could possibly be, depending on how I want to sell the show to people.

And I took that to Edinburgh Fringe last summer, where we did really well with critics and audiences. We were an audience favorite. We were nominated for a queer performers award, which I was very, very proud of.

And coming back to New York, I've been performing both that show and my monthly variety show, TGIF, Testing Gay Ideas Funny at one of the comedy theaters here in the city called the People's Improv Theater.

I was recently awarded the Solo Performer of the Year Award by the Young-Howze Theater Awards. So, I'm trying to make people laugh and win as many awards and accolades as I possibly can while doing so. 

And I think that that is as comprehensive a bit about me as I can possibly give up front without any interruption or follow-up questions from you. How's that?

Rob Loveless

That is perfect. And congratulations on the award. That's really exciting.

Michael John Ciszewski

Thanks. It's, it's very cool. You know, I don't, I don't expect awards, but they're really nice, and this is all sort of thankless.

No one is begging a nobody, not to undersell, but like no one is begging me to tell stupid jokes about being a homosexual.

But I take what I do very seriously. I take cultivating joy very seriously, and I take holding rooms of people very seriously.

And so, it's very, very cool to get something like that which says that I can do that and that I should be doing that.

And you know, encouragement towards further joy is really, really special to me. So, thank you.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. Well with that in mind, I do like to ask all my guests, today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Michael John Ciszewski

Today I'm a jaded gay, and I'll tell you, it is because I had a really.

I so my birthday is in 12 days, and I don't mean to be like a birthday month person, but one of my closest people is going out of town next week, and so we celebrated my birthday together last night, and I had this lovely time out on the town with him.

We spent a lot of time outside. It was like nearly 90 degrees here in New York, and I had, like, this deep and wonderful experience of joy and fun.

And then today, woke up and had to do work, both for my part-time hustle and for preparing the show that I'm hosting next Friday, my monthly show.

And you know, in the immortal words of that viral video: I really don't want to do the work today. And so, because of that, I'm just a little bit jaded.

Because of that, and like honestly, because everywhere I look, things seem a little bit weird and bad.

And I do not want nuclear war to happen before I get to host my show next Friday or before I get to my birthday.

So that's, that's what I'm that's what I'm jaded about today. What about you?

Rob Loveless

Yeah, I definitely hear that. And if we could hold off on nuclear war' til like, at least July, so we could get through Pride Month, that would be nice. So, we'll, we'll see.

But a bit jaded myself here, but just kind of general busyness. Nothing earth-shattering.

I mean, obviously, the world is falling down around us, but in my own personal life, nothing earth-shattering. Just trying to get through the week, you know?

Michael John Ciszewski

That's important. We have to, like, you know, count our blessings, our individual blessings. We're not going to count our collective blessings.

Rob Loveless

Exactly, I'm just like, all right, if I stay here in my house by myself and watch Sex and the City, maybe I could just pretend that everything's okay. You know?

Michael John Ciszewski

Absolutely, we just have to be careful not to let that turn into watching And Just Like That, which, of course, I won't keep myself from doing, because if we watch And Just Like That, then everything is rather not okay because I don't know that they've yet figured out what to do with the show.

And that's fine, let them work it out and give us content to consume in the meantime.

Rob Loveless

It's so funny you say that because I literally just watched last night's episode right before we recorded.

So, I'm not sure if I'm loving season three. I really liked season two because I thought it was kind of a return to form, like more of the grown-up Sex and the City.

Michael John Ciszewski

I've thought that too. I've not seen this week's episode. I was really pleased with the second episode of this third season. Feeling a little bit more like last season, where like we were doing some adult things again.

But it it does feel like a cartoon sometimes, and I don't want that from my Sex and the City universe.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, I agree. It, especially with Carrie's character, it almost feels like every delivery of hers is so campy and it wasn't.

There were definitely those moments in Sex and the City, but it didn't feel like it was consistently campy throughout from Carrie's standpoint. So, it just seems a little different.

Michael John Ciszewski

And I think Sarah Jessica Parker remains an incredible actress. And like, I know she's an EP.

I know that she has creative input on where the show is headed, but like, I do want to see her lean into some really exciting and juicy dramatic stuff, and I just don't know that the show is giving us that yet, but I have to watch this third episode.

And I say this as if, like, there's any threat of me ceasing my consumption of this material. I would never, I could never, both for like, professional reasons and for personal reasons.

I feel like I'm woefully committed to whatever slot Michael Patrick King and company decide that they want to cook up for us for the rest of all time.

Rob Loveless

It's like a car crash, because even if it's bad, you can't look away, and especially in your field, I'm sure it can prepare you with some material where you can, you know, roast it a little bit.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yes, yes, the TikToks about and just like that, have gotten engagement for better and for worse.

Rob Loveless

Well, we love to see that. And I think that's a good segue into this. So, you know, you gave us that great overview upfront.

Can you tell us a little bit more deeply about your experiences with comedy growing up?

Michael John Ciszewski

Sure, yeah. As a kid growing up, comedy was a I mean, you know, as it is for so many of us, a place of joy, for me, and a place of respite.

I am happy to say that, like, whether it's because of therapy or because it's the truth, I had a really lovely childhood. I'm very close with my mother, and I grew up in a single-parent household, and she and I had a lot of fun together.

And one of the primary, like threads of fun that we shared together was that, like she always invited me to consume the media that she was consuming with her.

And so, you know, as a kid, I was watching Sex and the City, and my mother was explaining to me, the things that Samantha was talking about.

Additionally, you know, like I grew up on some of these sort of, like classic mid to late 90s sitcoms like Will & Grace and Friends.

But I, I will say that I think, like my two sort of North Stars as a kid were Conan O'Brien. I would stay up late to watch his late show, and I was, like, so dazzled and charmed by his combination of like, effectively clowning and unbelievably charming self-deprecating humor.

And my other North Star was Sponge Bob and so and SpongeBob because, you know, like, I think it's been confirmed. I think Nickelodeon, or at least Steven Hillenburg, said that SpongeBob is, in fact, gay. 

Or at least Nickelodeon put him on, like a bunch of Pride posters a couple years ago, and I think we as a community took that as confirmation.

But that's that SpongeBob was this sort of like absurd and sincere anchor for me that inspired me towards making the kind of silly experiences for myself as a kid, whether it was in things like the aforementioned improv classes, or in my own writing, I was always a writer as a kid, that I enjoyed so much on shows like SpongeBob and you know, that lent a degree of intelligence that I saw in somebody like Conan O'Brien, and that still, you know, like spoke on relatable subjects, like some of the sitcoms that I was watching.

You know, specifically speaking to like Will & Grace, and I guess Conan as well, those particular areas of media were also, like very much in conversation with the pop culture of the era, and that I could engage with pop culture with humor, was as a fledgling gay boy, a sort of invitation into what I do now that I really cherished and held dear.

Yeah, I think you know, as I alluded to earlier, for me as a kid, growing up, I was, I was particularly overweight and I was a little bit lonely growing up with just my mom as an only child, and being in the closet.

Comedy, for me, was always a tool. It was a protective tool, of course. And, you know, I saw, I saw the way that Conan would use self-deprecation to protect himself from, you know, insecurities about his height and his red headedness, or, you know, a joke not landing.

And I sort of I learned that, like I could connect with people by making fun of myself, I could connect with people by getting the laugh first.

And I think that that allowed me to move through the growing pains of being a young gay kid who was still, despite feeling support and love in my home, really afraid of coming out and what that might mean, and so I developed a very close and necessary relationship with comedy that I wouldn't necessarily refine into something that was a creative practice until later in my life.

Rob Loveless

I love your answer there.

Queer Representation in Comedy (18:42)

Rob Loveless

And you touched upon the elements of pop culture and comedy, and you referenced specifically Will & Grace and Sex and the City.

And both of those shows at the time had groundbreaking queer representation. Now, looking back in hindsight, we see a lot about, you know, the gay best friend and the bitchy queen trope that we can see in there.

While it was imperfect at the time, again, groundbreaking, and it's paved the way for more authentic queer representation in comedy today.

So, with that in mind, what queer representation inspired you in that comedic space?

Michael John Ciszewski

It's funny. I mean, I, I wasn't an Ellen kid, like I didn't have an awareness of Ellen in in the cultural space as a kid. I had no idea of the Yep, I'm Gay Time magazine cover.

As a kid, I did not see, like a tremendous amount of gay representation beyond the aforementioned. You know, I loved and clung to Sean Hayes' Jack on Will & Grace.

I especially the way that Jack as a character engaged in diva worship, which is a cornerstone of not just my work, but my entire life.

You know, there were a lot of jokes on friends about Chandler being a particularly gay-coded character, and the intelligence of Chandler felt very queer-coded to me.

And I guess that that's where those jokes came from, and so I always looked towards that character. And then on Sex and the City even, right? You have Anthony and Stanford.

You know who, again, they are very much part of these tropes. And not all of these actors are gay, some of them are, and watching them as a kid sort of felt a little bit like, forbidden fruit, a little bit it felt a little bit like engaging with this tantalizing possibility of like a person I could be.

And, you know, little did I know a performer that I could be a role, that I couldn't have it in the work that I would eventually build a life doing.

But even in the sort of like stand-up or live performer space, I didn't see a lot. I did not have and I did not see a lot of performers who were not just out, but who were using their queerness as a primary tenant of the work that they made.

You know, I think that, like, one of the first people I saw be gay as themselves in a live performance context was actually Ross Matthews in his Ross the Intern arc on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno.

And that was so funny to me, because it was, you know, that particular character on the show was minimizing of like, Ross's humanity and Ross's intelligence.

And that being said, I remember watching Ross on The Tonight Show and looking at this, at the time, fat gay man, and seeing myself a lot in Ross and watching him employ these things that people could, of course, hold against him.

Especially, you know, in the late 90s, early 2000s, culture was unkind to anybody even remotely other, and we've not gotten that much better.

Culture is still very unkind to the other, but Ross sweetly weaponized all of those things that people could have made fun of him for and spun it into a career.

I cannot believe that I rocked up to the podcast today ready to fucking canonize Ross Matthews and his career maneuvers.

But like, you know recently, I don't know if you are on the Addison Rae train at all, but in Addison's like, pre-album release Popcast interview with The New York Times, she said, and this is a quote that has gone a little bit viral, taste is a luxury.

And she said that she just wanted to make sure that she was doing what she needed to do on TikTok, to get out there and to build a career for herself.

And I think that that's an incredible distillation of a tool, a mechanism that those of us who identify at all as other have had to do for so long. And you know, I saw Ross doing that.

Taste was not, taste was a luxury for Ross. Ross could not, you know, like make perhaps the most intelligent character of himself, or the most intelligent humor of his experience working on the Tonight Show, as perhaps he might have in a culture that was more hospitable to him.

And so, you know, I remember seeing Ross and Sean Hayes as Jack, and Willie Garson as Stanford. I remember, you know, even Matthew Perry, may he rest as Chandler.

And I remember thinking like, okay, there are, there are tools that I can use to sort of Trojan horse who I am into the world, not even into the work that I would make, because I didn't know as a kid that this is what I was going to do.

But I could use my intelligence, I could use my charm, and I could use my silliness to make my way in in a world that is otherwise unkind to me.

And so, these early experiences of these people and these characters did, at the very least give me hope that I wasn't going to have to completely sublimate my identity and pass in order to exist.

At the very least, I thought, okay, like I might, you know, as a kid, I thought I might be closeted forever.

I, you know, before I knew that I could live a fully realized and self-actualized life out, I thought to myself, like, well, I may be gay, I may be in the closet, but I can certainly use my wit, and my intelligence to cut a path forward for myself in the world.

Rob Loveless

And I think too, in the larger perspective of that with that representation, I'm not as familiar I know Ross Matthews, obviously, but I'm not as familiar with that stint because I, my parents were very strict about what I could watch when I was younger.

So, some of these things I haven't seen until I was older. But, especially with Will & Grace and Sex in the City, it wasn't your typical story of queer suffering.

There was definitely stereotypes, campiness, poking fun at oneself, but it really showed that while all those things were happening, these people were still living their lives in a narrative that brought about joy.

So, it was kind of twofold, that one for us gay boys, we could kind of see that and know that there was a future for us.

And two, also for society as a whole, while, this may not have been perfect representation at the time, it was more palpable that could allow kind of the social movement to keep going forward, to promote more acceptance, and to have more people see that these characters, they love, their neighbors could be like that, their sons, whoever, and see that it's not this scary, gross, dangerous thing, but it's just another way of life.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that, like as as time passed and I got a little bit older, is when we start to see Chris Colfer's character, Kurt Hummel on Glee.

And that, fortunately, coincided with both the Obama era and, you know, the big self-empowerment wave in pop music that arguably has its apex in Born This Way, and how that was concurrent with, you know, the movement to legalize gay marriage.

And by then, we finally started to see that, like, yes, these characters might be silly, femme, little fairies that are not necessarily worth taking seriously, but they're people, and they have, you know, serious desires that are just as worth supporting with rights as everyone else's.

And so, it was interesting. I mean, you know, I I'm very grateful to have come of age through a period of time that really saw our movement of like arguing for our existence in both, you know, sociopolitical and cultural spaces come to a head, come all the way from people like Jack on Will & Grace to Kurt on Glee and you know, then the wave of villainous Ryan Murphy gays and so on and so forth. Now we're in a very different place, and I appreciate that.

Rob Loveless

And I like that smile I saw on your face when you said, Born This Way.

And I can only assume you know through seeing your, If Memory Serves, show and then your Insta stories, I know you're a Lady Gaga stan.

And especially like you said, Born This Way was really, even when I was in denial of who I was, that was a big empowerment, just not even sexuality-wise, just who you are.

Like this is who you are, embrace it, you know.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know. And I think depending on who you ask, depending on what resources you are citing, Lady Gaga has identified as a queer person. She's identified as bisexual. She's famously bluffing with her muffin.

And, you know, I think that, like even beyond the message of Born This Way, both the song and the album, she's been an artist that has really expanded space for the other in pop music, in art, and she's built this big umbrella and has continued to use her privilege and platform.

I mean, like, you know, I know so many of us were so deeply moved by the fact that she was the only person question mark, question mark, to rock up to the Grammys in February of this year and actually speak the words, trans people.

So, you know, it has always been incredibly important to me that I honor and occupy this space that she and so many other trailblazers have opened up for us, and I continue to build stuff inside of that space that is weird and personal and that invites other people in.

Rob Loveless

And to your point, with her platform, she's combining pop culture with societal impact, and I think that's something we see a lot in comedy as well.

Humor’s Impact on the LGBTQ+ Community (28:50)

Rob Loveless

In the past, humor has often been intertwined with social movements, and it offers a way to push back against adversity. I'm gonna go back to some research from an episode I did a couple years ago.

In 2019 or a 2019 article for Psychology Today, John-Manuel Andriote claimed that humor has historically provided a voice against societal impression.

Specifically, he states that camp humor emerged in the 1920s as a way to express anger and frustration over marginalization, and it became a tool for subversion, which allowed gay men to confront and mock societal norms.

Humor in general, has also been viewed as an approach to help gay men redefine their identities, reject victimhood, and embrace empowerment.

And ultimately, the author asserts that it aids in survival and also influences how broader society perceives gay individuals.

So, with all that in mind, I was wondering, what effect do you personally think humor has on the LGBTQ+ community?

Michael John Ciszewski

Besides it being one of our most essential selves, I think that humor is a tool for queer people, through which we heal. I think it's a I think laughter is a healing ritual for us.

I think that, you know, queer comedy is, at the very least, the way that I like to practice it a healing ritual. You know, I think that we've been the butt of so many jokes that it's become really important for us to use our abilities, our unique abilities to not take ourselves so seriously, to continue to move towards exactly the experiences that we want.

I mean, laughter unburdens shame, and shame is the very thing that sort of holds us as people back. Shame is darkness, laughter is light.

And I think that we have, you know, like I was talking earlier about this sort of, like Trojan horse mechanism that is comedy for queer people, where, you know, we can articulate, we can perform our identities, and we can get ahead of the laughs that are always going to be at our expense anyways.

We can own those laughs. We can often monetize those laughs. But I think, you know, as laughter is the best medicine, I do feel that we possess a unique ability to heal the scars that we have incurred from simply existing in a society that doesn't want us to be who we are by making fun of all of that.

I mean, that's even, even as a white gay man, that is the work that I do.

But I see it across the board. I see the most inspired queer comedy that I am, you know, in conversation with as a contemporary or as an audience member, use laughter as a way to heal ourselves.

It's you know, if awareness begets change, then you know, writing a joke or telling a funny story is a means by which to own a narrative and actualize a narrative and give ourselves the agency to write our own stories.

And so, I think that comedy is very much a part of the way that we write those stories.

The Evolution of Queer Comedy (32:17)

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And I know we touched upon this a little bit earlier. But how have you seen queer comedy evolve and through its evolution, who are some queer comedians who inspire you?

Michael John Ciszewski

I think that over the last like 10 to 15 years, queer comedy has evolved so deeply and in such an exciting way.

I think, you know, we've been fortunate to have people break doors down for us and open up space in comedy, the way that I argue Lady Gaga did in culture, more largely.

And you know, Lady Gaga is obviously not the only one, but I think that like we are finally in a space now where queer comedians don't have to make work about their identity. We can if we choose to.

And our identity still matters so much to us, so of course we will. But I think that in the last 10 to 15 years, we've seen comedy by queer creatives especially get so much weirder and more personal.

We've seen it experiment with form in ways that interrogates storytelling and mixed media and varied performance.

I think that you know, one of those sort of boundary breakers for us, for me especially, was Alan Cumming, even just as a person in the culture, I'm not saying necessarily with any one particular performance, but as a person in the culture, the way that Alan Cumming constantly brought camp to everything that he did, whether it was creating a cologne named after his last name and owning that sort of butt of the joke, or, you know, the performances that he gave in movies like Spy Kids really sort of like, helped push past gay best friend and bitchy queen stereotypes and move us into like, yeah, we can be weird little freaks too.

Hilariously, I think that Billy Eichner did a lot to move us forward. I think that like letting Man On the Street be somebody who is not just a bitchy queen, but a mean and intelligent bitchy queen, really advanced our ability to bring our intelligence to the cultural space and not apologize for how smart and in control we were, and obviously, that rightfully got Billy into some trouble with some of the guests that he interrogated on the street on the show.

But I think that that's that's the political power of that, which is that like, yeah, a loud, bitchy, aggressive gay guy can and should get into fights with people who are more right than him on the street.

And that is our right to exist in that space, you know. And then beyond that, I think that, like you know, we've, we've seen people who have really, really been toiling away for the last 10, 15 years, really breaking through.

Like, god bless Cole Escola, and congratulations to them, a hero of mine, on their Tony Award last weekend to see that kind of like you know, mainstream acceptance happens so wholly after their toiling away making, as the director of Oh, Mary!, Sam Pinkleton said in his Tony acceptance speech for Best Direction uncompromisingly making exactly the work that they love, you know, and that has been steeped in diva worship and worship of the feminine, but also absurd and about crafting narratives that feel queer and more accurate to our experience, even if they are less realistic.

I think Cole is a real hero for create, for continuing to weird the space that we've occupied as queer people, both queer creatives and queer audiences.

I think the Las Culturistas boys have done an incredible deal for like bitchy queen, sassy gay best friend, stereotypes that have their intelligence and their humanity about them.

You know, and the fact that, like Bowen and Matt both bring their sincerity, their heart, their adoration, their respect, to the commentary that they bring to culture.

I think Julio Torres, are you familiar with Julio?

Rob Loveless

Yeah.

Michael John Ciszewski

Um, Julio Torres, I think, is, you know, one of our most exciting sort of, like comic voices in culture right now.

I think that their HBO special from maybe what two, three years ago, My Favorite Shapes really blew open what a comedy special could be, and has inspired so many incredible copycats who are now doing really incredible, experimental, and queer things with form.

You know, and then, like, thinking about, like, even where we've taken sitcom archetypes and sitcom joke structures.

I think that, like, say what you will about the low-hanging fruit of Matteo Lane's subject matter, but like mama, that's an expert joke writer who knows how to hold a crowd.

And you know, I think that all of these people have yielded a really diverse and vital, exciting space in queer comedy that's seeing new things happen and new stories get told.

You know, there are, there are some folks, even here in New York City, whose work I cherish. I have a, one of my dear friends is a comedian and singer-songwriter named Jess Elgene, who's gone viral on TikTok with this like, poet laureate bit.

Poet Laureate of the Family bit. She's an incredible like, trans woman comic who I had the pleasure of working with, who like brings a sketch whimsy to what she does and like doesn't forego the sincerity and the heartbreak of her experience as a trans woman in both this industry and our world.

She doesn't leave that out of her work. And I find that to be unbelievably respectable and inspiring.

And there's a another comedian in New York called Jay Jurden, who, I think, like, is pound for pound, joke for joke, one of the, like, most mercenary hitters that we have right now, and he's been on The Tonight Show a couple of times as a guest, and I just can't wait to see, like, what finally breaks him through to the mainstream, because, like, he's genuinely beyond professional at what he does.

And, you know, I think it's it's just so exciting to me to see so many, so much queer representation, doing so many different things so well.

And I just pray and hope that we don't lose the space and the platforms for these talents to continue to inspire a next generation.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, and it's been really refreshing to see how mainstream queer comedy has gone in recent years. I love everyone you just mentioned there.

So, Matt and Bowen. I first knew Matt Rogers when Q Force came out in 2021, that's when I first became familiar with him. Also, Sean Hayes from Will & Grace behind that.

And then Bowen Yang in 2022 with Fire Island.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah.

Rob Loveless

And then I found out that they had Las Culturistas podcast. I just started listening to the podcast this year, so I started all the way back in I think 2016...

Michael John Ciszewski

Oh my gosh.

Rob Loveless

...when they launched, and I'm up to the pandemic of 2020. So, it's interesting, but it's, it's a fun time capsule.

But the thing I love with that is, in 2016 when they started like they were just two friends with their podcast.

Obviously, I know what they're doing now with their careers, but to see their careers really grow to be more than just like a niche queer, you know, pop culture comedy, but really become, you know, they're having the Las Culturistas Awards now.

They're having a book come out. Bowen Yang was in Wicked and, you know, the sequel that's coming out soon.

They had Matteo Lane on the show, who's another huge, like, widely recognized in mainstream.

His recent comedy special was out on Hulu, and I was saying something to my sister, who, I mean, she knows gay people, but she's not, like, all into gay culture, but she's like, oh my god, I love him. I see him on TikTok. He's hilarious.

So, it's really transcended just this queer niche.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's something that I think about all the time is, you know, actually moving back, Samantha on Sex and the City, when she's when she takes on Smith, both as a partner and as a client, she says, famously, first the gays, then the girls, then the world.

And I do think that with specific regard to like Matt and Bowen, but so many of our queer celebrities. We see that exact arc where, you know, we are, we are held up by our community as an example of our best. 

And then, you know, we cultivate this audience of allies, and then we ideally take over the world and are starring in Wicked and on SNL. That Bowen is now an SNL veteran is so unbelievably cool to me.

You know, as a kid, even like there were so many SNL sketches that were gay full stop.

And yes, of course, there were gay archetypes and gay stereotypes portrayed with those characters, like Chris Kattan's Mango, for example.

But those were also being written by and I forget the guy's name, so we're gonna have to do a little bit of research. But those are written by a very famous gay writer on the show.

Deep House Dish was an SNL, a recurring SNL sketch about like the sort of incredible, limpidity of house music, but now to have an actual queer person, queer people behind the scenes at SNL.

Bowen's there, there's an incredible queer writer on staff at SNL called Celeste Yim, with whom Bowen writes a lot of his sketches.

And like to know that that space, which has always been a part of a cultural institution like SNL, is now finally being driven by actual queer people, is so exciting to me.

Jimmy Fowley, Jimmy Fowley, too is a writer on SNL. He plays on the other two the instagay, and he he writes a lot of these incredible queer sketches on SNL.

And so right like these, whether whether we know them, whether we know them as Matteo Lane, or whether we know them as this sketch on SNL, which feels inherently gay, this stuff is really out there and really part of the culture, in a way that is so exciting and makes it, you know, makes it nicer to live in the world when, like, we're experiencing queer culture.

I mean, you know, like, sort of even looping back to the pop music of it all that we now have the option to listen to, especially so much sapphic pop, whether it's Chappell Roan or Billie Eilish or Reneé Rapp or Doechii, you know, like that way that we have, like so much representation with music written from the perspective of like, people who have same-sex attraction is so exciting and so cool, and really, I think, a tremendous sign that no matter what's happening politically, the cat's out of the bag, we've opened Pandora's box for the better, and there is no going back, and we just have to keep enjoying this stuff, making this stuff and sharing this stuff with our friends.

Authenticity in Queer Comedy (44:02)

Rob Loveless

And I'm curious as queer comedy has gone more mainstream. Unfortunately, there's always criticism from both outside the community and within the community.

Kind of taking it political for a minute. I know when Pete Buttigieg announced his campaign for presidency, there was criticism both within and outside the community, on both sides that he was either too gay or not gay enough.

So, I was curious within the comedy realm, as it's become more mainstream, do you see those kind of challenges arise, or have you, as a comedian, ever felt the pressure to represent the quote, unquote, whole queer community?

Which obviously is impossible to do because they're, you know, being queer does not equal one thing.

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah, I think representation is a real challenge when it comes to making work.

And, you know, I looping back to what I said earlier, when I invoked Addison Rae, just about like doing whatever it takes to get out of, you know, whatever sort of like station you're in as a as a creative.

Um, it is tempting to want to make work that speaks to everybody, and it is tempting to take responsibility for our entire community.

But I do think that if I've learned anything over the last ten years of doing this myself, it's that I can only really write from my experience. You know, obviously, everybody says, write what you know.

But there's, I can't, I can't fake anything else. And you know, comedy is at its best, and we are at our funniest when we are being most honest.

And so, I would be doing myself and my audience as a disservice if I was trying to speak to any experience beyond being a slutty gay guy, which is, which is what I am, you know?

And like I think that the more that I own exactly who I am in my voice, the more it can dialog with voices that are more diverse and interesting than mine.

I think that, you know, we're always going, we're always going to want to be most critical of our own, because unfortunately, there are still only so many opportunities for queer people in the world in which we live, whether it is opportunities to become President of the United States of America, or opportunities to get a special on Hulu.

And so, as a community, I think the impulse is good-hearted in that we want to send our best forward. And so, of course, you know, like when Pete announces his presidential run, we're going to get criticism from all over the community about exactly how Pete should perform his identity in order to yield the best results.

When you get, you know, Matteo Lane finally getting his Hulu special, you're going to get criticism from gay guys who consume his stuff on TikTok saying, like, why is this basic joke about, you know, caddy brunch argument?

What we're sending forth to people with streaming services, streaming service subscriptions.

But at the end of the day, we can only keep doing what we've always done, which is bravely existing as exactly ourselves.

I think that if we remind ourselves that the impulses towards criticism are coming from a good place, then hopefully we can, you know, not escalate those into inter-community or intra-community rifts that compromise our ability to move forward and to create representation for ourselves.

You know, I want to have people like me at my shows. I want to entertain people like me at my shows, and I want to entertain people who think a little bit like people like me at my shows.

I don't want to not answer their criticisms, and I don't want to not feel responsible to them, but I also can only do what I can do. And I can only do that as well as I can.

And I think that there is a fine line between critique and support when it comes to representation in any stream, whether it is main or otherwise.

And you know, we don't want to let folks, let queer folks off the hook when it comes to the stuff that we're making, but we also want to make sure that we're showing up with as much love as we possibly can.

Queer Humor & Politics (48:19)

Rob Loveless

While we're touching upon the topic of politics, I do want to kind of ask some questions that are going to definitely be a little heavier and not as late as queer comedy in general.

Obviously, there's no denying Pride Month this year feels a little different. So given the current political climate, what power do you see humor bringing to the table?

Michael John Ciszewski

I think first and foremost, comedy this June is an essential space for release for us.

I think that it's really important that we center queer joy, and if that is something that we can do with comedy, then we must because it is otherwise incredibly difficult.

And I don't think that any of us are interested in queer narratives primarily reverting to that of queer suffering anymore.

So, I think that comedy is the means by which we continue to fuel ourselves by reminding us that which we're fighting for. We're fighting for our laughter. We're fighting for our love.

We're fighting for our ability to gather and celebrate who we are and what we are and how we are together.

And if, if laughter and a little bit of light can inspire us to, like, get back on the streets and, you know, get back in dialog with folks who want to take that away from us, then, great. I also think that, like, I think, you know, all art is political and speaking our stories, you know, I think for myself like it's actually taken me a little while to recognize that simply sharing my story honestly is a political act because, at the end of the day, I am narrativizing and putting out into the world possibility.

Possibility that you know, our villains, politicians who oppose our existence want to snuff out, and so the louder and more consistently we can message who we are, the louder and more consistently we can tell our stories, the more we are claiming our space.

So, when I tell jokes about, you know, my open relationship, when I tell jokes about like, my sort of like hookups gone awry, that is even as stupid as it may sound, inherently political, because it creates space for possibility that for possibility of existence that our opponents in the political sphere wish to snuff out. 

And so beyond simply providing us an opportunity to celebrate and laugh with one another, comedy right now, a month like this is an essential opportunity for us to argue for our existence by saying who and what we are.

Rob Loveless

Going off of that, you know, we've been seeing with corporations this Pride, who once wanted to celebrate us by selling Pride merchandise and making money now are slowly turning their backs, or maybe they only want to embrace the quote-unquote normal gay guy vote.

Similarly, we had touched upon early queer representation in comedy, it tended to be more stereotypical because that was what was more digestible for the mainstream.

So, in the face of this adversity that we're seeing currently, how do you keep your work authentic in a world where queer culture is sometimes commodified or watered down?

Michael John Ciszewski

I think that's especially from where I sit as somebody who is, you know, a regional artist. You know, I work in major cities along the East Coast.

I travel occasionally to the UK, and I tell my stories. I think that it's a really tricky question to ask, you know, like, how do I write a pop song like Just Dance or Bad Romance that is going to get me on the radio so that I can then release my Born This Way?

I you know, this is explained in pop terms for comedy, I think often about, like, how can I make something accessible and palatable so that I can one day do the weird and spiky things that I am slightly more interested in doing, or that are slightly scarier even and slightly less accepted.

And, you know, I think that, I think that looking at, you know, the inspiration that I just named, even while, while those songs, while those Lady Gaga songs use the structure of pop music in a very traditional way, by no means do they compromise the unique perspective that she brought to pop music. 

And I think that it's sort of like that's the sort of secret as as queer people and as as a queer creative myself that I try to employ.

I'm not going to silence myself, and I'm not going to censor myself when it comes to my subject matter or my sharing my experience, but I am going to make sure that I am crafting as unimpeachable and unfailing a piece of work as I possibly can.

I think we have to make ourselves undeniable, and that's what Lady Gaga did. And you know, like for the rest of my life, I know I've chased work that is as undeniable as some of her biggest hits, because if, if you know, if our most conservative countrymen want to dance to Poker Face and Just Dance and our, you know, most norm core, if we can make a conservative laugh, you know, like, which is arguably, like, what these tropes that we started out our conversation discussing could do, you know?

Like, these are all Trojan horses. These are all Trojan horses that ultimately, like, get our identities and our politics further down the road. These are, these are Trojan horses that advance our agenda.

And so, you know, all to say, all to say, and this is a tricky question, and so forgive me for sort of like working my way here.

We can't compromise who we are or how we are, how we love, and the stories that we're telling. I do think that all we can ever do is make sure that we are speaking as intentionally as possible and as clearly as possible to our audiences.

And if that is an audience of a room of like-minded people, then great, we can let it all hang out.

If it's an audience of Hulu subscribers, then like Matteo Lane, we might have to make sure that we are speaking in a language that other people can understand, and that's code-switching.

We've always code-switched, and I think that very simply, we have to be as good at code-switching as we can be and decide when it is in our best interest to code-switch for our own sake and when it is not.

Rob Loveless

Do you think queer comedy can still be radical even as it gets more mainstream popularity?

Michael John Ciszewski

Yeah, absolutely. 100% without a doubt. I think that queer comedy, simply in its existence, is radical.

And I think that, unfortunately, you know, even with certain things in the mainstream, queer existence certainly isn't becoming any less radical because of our political moment.

And I think that, right, as we said earlier, the more mainstream queer comedy gets, the more opportunity we have to do even weirder things and even more idiosyncratic things and even more unique things in queer comedy.

I mean, you know, like, take, for example, Hannah Gadsby. I think, like they began as a sitcom actor and writer and a more traditional stand-up, but as their work found success, they leveraged that success into telling stories and, you know, jokes, I guess, depending on what you call their work now that is more radical and more interesting and less categorizable than their earlier stuff.

And so, I think that, like queer people are restless individuals, and we will continue to articulate ourselves as our existence demands as more space is available to us.

The Future of Queer Comedy (57:33)

Rob Loveless

With that in mind, what excites you most about the future of queer comedy?

Michael John Ciszewski

I think collective power. I think collective power excites me most about the future of queer comedy. I mean, you know, I want to see, I want to see a sitcom that is staffed from the top down, on both sides of the camera, with queer people.

I want to see what we're able to do when we get, you know, two or more queer creatives in a in a comedy space together.

And, you know, I'm fortunate enough that the lineups that I program for my shows are always all queer people.

I'm I'm fortunate enough that I can, I can see those kinds of shows here, and I am really excited about just the kind of bravery that we can muster, in a creative sense, when we have each other's backs.

And I think we're seeing some of that now, of course, you know so much of the Oh Mary! creative team is incredible, brilliant queer people.

And of course, we will always play nicely with our allies, people who want to give us the money, the resources, the time of day to make our work speak even more clearly and loudly.

But I just think that, you know, we can conquer the world. If Born This Way can sit at the top of the Billboard Hot 100 for six weeks, then, you know, there's a Cole Escola big-budget movie that's actually good and makes, you know, multiple hundreds of million dollars in a couple of years.

And I want to see that so that, you know, like us when we were kids, have that, and you know that we continue to advance our representation into making space for people who are different.

And I know that, you know, finding those words made me sound a little stupid, but I think genuinely like, what excites me most about queer comedy is that like it only makes the tent bigger and more inclusive for people like us to exist.

Queer Humor & Activism (59:53)

Rob Loveless

And as we're coming to the end of this episode, what advice would you give to queer folks looking to use humor as a form of activism or storytelling, both for Pride and the future?

Michael John Ciszewski

I know I said a little bit of this earlier. We are as queer people, I think, incredibly articulate.

And I think as queer people, we use, you know, the language of identity and also the language of words to create space for ourselves to exist as freely as we possibly can.

The advice that I would give is something like, don't compromise on your articulation. And as I was saying earlier, make sure you know who you're speaking to.

And I hesitate a little bit around that because it sounds like a warning, but I mean, I mean it in an empowering way, where you know if we are speaking with an opponent, if we are articulating ourselves to an opponent, somebody who doesn't want to see us do well then like, is it useful to kill them with kindness?

Is it useful to charm the pants off of them, or is it useful to tell them to fuck off? We, as queer people, it is our superpower to articulate our narratives, because that's how we made ourselves.

That's how you know, we came out of the closet. If we've been privileged enough to do so, that's how we find ourselves, and I think that we can use our narrative prowess with with humor to create spaces for ourselves that come from a place of joy and that again, center joy and center love, so that we don't exhaust ourselves fighting the good fight.

You know, a little bit more concretely, I would say, like, if I could give any advice, like, cling to that which you love, whether it's Lady Gaga or Matteo Lane or a creator on TikTok that you think is incredible, cling to that which you love, copy it.

Copy it your way. Because you are a queer person, it will not look remotely like your inspiration point. Good artists steal. Great artists steal a lot.

So, steal a lot and remake the world in the image of yourself and celebrate your wins with friends. You know, I think that like community is is our, is our church, community is our safe space.

And if we can do these things with the support and love of like-minded people, then, you know, the world is ours.

Episode Closing (1:02:43)

Rob Loveless

And connecting back to the tarot, the Nine of Swords in reverse, again, this card is all about the way we communicate, our thoughts and ideas. And it's telling us that we have a lot of inner turmoil right now. 

There's a lot of fear and anxiety, and it may be causing us to spiral and to not see clearly and to not see that hope on the horizon.

And when we find ourselves in times like these, we really need to look at our support system and who we're surrounding ourselves with, so that way we can kind of get the reality check we need and hopefully find a new perspective that can bring us out of this funk.

And just like Michael talked about today, I think queer comedy really offers that space. We've seen its evolution over time, going from stereotypical, campy to more authentic and gritty.

And whether it's stand-up comedy or comedic performance, these jokes and the dialog we hear, not only do they provide laughs and poke fun at the things that might be oppressing us, but they also help us process that and cope with it and also raise awareness around it.

And we've seen over time, comedic roles like in Will & Grace helped push progress forward.

Obviously, back then, the representation wasn't perfect, but it paved the way for more authentic representation today.

So again, while queer comedy may, on the surface level, seem like it's just for laughs, it's creating the characters and the spaces and the voices we need to see and recognize and hear to help us realize that we're not alone and to help build our perspective and push our movement forward.

Connect with Michael John (1:04:01)

Rob Loveless

Michael, thank you again, so much for coming on today. This has been such a fun episode to record. I think this really is giving me renewed inspiration for Pride Month.

So, I think it's a really great balance of politics and laughs and exactly what we needed to get some queer joy out there.

Michael John Ciszewski

I'm so glad.

Rob Loveless

Well, as we're coming to the end here, can you tell all the listeners where they can learn more about you, connect with you, see your upcoming performances? Plug all the things.

Michael John Ciszewski

Sure, yes, absolutely, that's my job. I am on Instagram @xomichaeljohn. XO, like hug, or kiss hug would be the order there. Michael John, M-I-C-H-A-E-L-J-O-H-N.

I am on TikTok @michaeljohnofficial, which I think is funny. If you grew up in the Vevo days, I was like a hair away from making it Michael John Vevo, but that doesn't sound like anything.

So, I'm @michaeljohofficial there. xomichaeljohn.com is my website.

I host a monthly show the third Friday of every month at the People's Improv Theater in midtown Manhattan called TGIF, Testing Gay Ideas Funny, that I'm very proud of, and I pop up at comedy clubs and theaters all over the East Coast.

I, yeah, no, that's everything. That's everything right now. I was about to be like, I'll be back in the UK next year, but let's not, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Let me, I have a show next Friday, June 20. It's my birthday show and my Pride show, so I'm focusing on that right now.

Let me not, you know, literally fly myself across the country and what I'm plugging right now.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Well, happy early birthday, and everyone listening, definitely check him out. You're gonna love it. You'll laugh your straight off. So go follow him. Go to the shows, do all the things.

Michael John Ciszewski

Thanks, Rob. And you know, for folks who are in Philly, we will we had such a, or in Pennsylvania at all, we had such an amazing time at Philly Fringe last year. We will be back.

I'm not sure if it's this fall or going to be next fall, but like we've done shows in Philly for the last two years running, and I'd be remiss to leave my community in Philly for long.

Especially because I have to check out Little Gay Pub.

Rob Loveless

Exactly, exactly. Well, hopefully, we'll see you here soon then.

Michael John Ciszewski

Absolutely, hope so.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:06:08)

Rob Loveless

And for the podcast, you know the drill. If you have any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Five stars only. I greatly appreciate it.

For more information on this topic, guest information, episode resources, blog posts, links to merchandise, socials, all that fun stuff, you can visit the website ajadedgay.com.

You can connect with the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

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And if you're scared of commitment, don't worry. I get it. You can make a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee for any dollar amount. And both the Patreon and Buy Me a Coffee are @ajadedgaypod.

And Happy Pride Month. I know it's been political, but I hope you all had some time to celebrate and really experience queer joy. And I will see you all in August.

And remember: every day is all we have, so you gotta make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.

Outtake (1:07:44)

Rob Loveless

And I love how you touched. Sorry. I'm getting over a cold. My birthday was the beginning of June, and I woke up the day of my actual birthday sick.

So, all last week I was out. I'm like, fine now, but I'm still just, it's like, the aftermath.

Michael John Ciszewski

Your body really wanted to hammer home that you were aging.

Rob Loveless

I know it's like, you're 32 we're just going to shut down now. You're done. So, it's been a good run.

Michael John Ciszewski

That's how it goes.