155. Queers in History: Pride, Resistance, and Fighting Erasure (with Keith Stern)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Keith Stern

To people who love history, History is sacred, and the truth is sacred. And we don't always have the truth, but we're always seeking the truth.

Episode Introduction (0:28)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a non-jaded gay because the weather is finally turning.

It feels like summer's on the horizon, and I've bought a ton of outdoor plants to make my front sidewalk area and back patio feel a little bit more like a garden. So, I got some planters I put flowers in.

I actually got a dogwood tree for my front yard. In the backyard, I got some evergreen trees and put some flowers in my window box. So, I'm just really embracing the summer vibes, and I'm super excited.

LGBTQ+ History (1:00)

Rob Loveless

And as we're embracing the summer vibes, we continue to celebrate Pride. And today, especially, we are going to be talking more about getting back to the roots of Pride.

We've talked about this in last week's episode about how this year is going back more towards the advocacy and activism that surrounded Pride, and I think honoring our history is an especially important part of that.

So, I'm very excited to have a special guest on today to talk all about some queer history. But before we get into it, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (1:31)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the Seven of Swords. As you'll remember, Swords is tied to the element of air. It's masculine energy, so it's very action-oriented.

And Swords is symbolic of our thoughts, ideas, and communication. In numerology, seven is representative of inspired action and magic.

So, when we draw the Seven of Swords, it's warning us of possible deception or trickery. Specifically, either we could be trying to get away with something or someone's not being candid with us.

Regardless of who the culprit is, when deception is occurring, trust is being broken so someone can push their own agenda.

So, with this in mind, we need to listen to our intuition and take strategic action to avoid trickery and promote honesty and truthfulness.

Guest Introduction (2:14)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to welcome our next guest. He is the author of Queers in History. Please welcome Keith Stern. Hi, Keith. How are you today?

Keith Stern

Hi. I'm doing great. Hello to Philadelphia and the world beyond.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Glad to hear and we're glad to have you here for a very special Pride conversation. We're going to be talking about Queers in History. Can't wait to get into it.

Before we do though, I was wondering, can you introduce yourself to the listeners? Tell them a little bit about yourself, your background, career, pronouns, how you identify, all that fun stuff?

Keith Stern

Okay well, I'm Keith Stern. Pronouns, he and him. And I have been involved in the entertainment business for many years, and in the computer business for many years.

And those used to be two separate things, but they kind of came together when the internet happened in the '90s, and I was in a good position to work for the movie studios, movie stars, and movies doing official websites and social media.

Facebook, X, Twitter, whatever. So that's kind of my background. And then but before that, before the internet, I stumbled upon this topic of queers in history, because I was always interested in history in general, and I would read about particularly the culture and arts, writers, poets, painters, musicians.

And I stumbled across an article about Leonardo da Vinci that just casually mentioned that he was gay. And I thought, well, that's kind of strange. I was reading an article about Michelangelo just a few weeks ago, and they said the same thing, but there were absolutely no details, just just threw that, they just threw that into the article as if it was just an accepted fact.

So, I I thought, well, that's very interesting, that two of the most famous artists and thinkers of all time were gay. I wonder if I could find out more, and I wonder if I could find some more famous people from history. And I decided to spend a little time in the library.

And I thought if I spent a week going back and forth to the library, I would be able to collect maybe 50 names from the past of people who were demonstrably homosexual, gay, queer, lesbian, bent, whatever. And amazingly, after about a week, I had 100 of them.

And being a computer geek, I put them into a database and had them on diskettes, showed them to a few friends, and everyone was very excited to kind of see this list on the computer screen.

So I went down to my local gay bookstore, A Different Light, which is no longer there, on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood, California. It's a slightly different book kind of bookstore now.

And I spoke to the owner, Mark Simon, and he said, this is really, he put it on his little computer in the background, said, that's really cool. Make me a dozen, and I'll put them on on the shelf. We'll see what happens.

So, I ran down to The Office Depot and bought a lot of pink paper and plastic envelopes and labels and diskettes, and I manufactured 12 copies, put them in a box, and brought them down to him, and he said, thanks. Leave them on my desk.

And I came back about a week, no, about two, three days later, to see if he had sold any. And I couldn't find it anywhere. Couldn't find the box, couldn't find the diskettes. And I thought, oh gosh, he never put them on the shelf, or maybe he threw them away, or maybe they just didn't sell.

And I went back, and I told him, I can't find him. He looked around a little bit. He said, oh, they're gone. I guess we sold them all. Give me some more. And eventually, he sold about 600 of them in that store. And eventually, we were in bookstores all around the world.

And that was 32 years ago. That was in 1993, or 1992 to 93 and so that did very well for a little while, and then I got totally distracted by the internet. I couldn't keep it up to date, and I moved on to other things for a few years.

Then about 2009 a publisher approached me and said, Let's make it into a paperback book. And I said, okay, let's do. And that was a lot more work than I expected it would be.

I spent about a year and a half with four editors, but in the end, we had a great little book, and it hit the shelves, I think, in 2010 and again, around the world.

I picked up copies for friends in New Zealand and Paris and London all around the world and that proved very rewarding, but very difficult to update a paperback book. You can't just do that like a diskette.

And besides, right after that book came out, people started coming out, in droves, and a lot of musicians, lot of actors, a lot of other people just decided it was time to let the world know that they were LGBT.

So, there was no way that I could possibly keep up. And for 16 years, that book in various forms was out there.

So, it seemed like it was maybe time to give it a bit of an update, it was a little humiliating to me that it was still selling, and people were buying this book that was 16 years old and completely out of date.

So, I've spent maybe the past six or seven months bringing it up to date and issuing a new edition.

So, after 32 years, we have for 2025 brand new edition of Queers in History, and it's now so big that it has to be in two volumes. Instead of one book, it's two.

Rob Loveless

That's a really exciting overview there, and I think it's great to see how it has grown over the time. Now that we need two volumes because we're here, we're queer. Get used to it.

We're going to dive a lot more into the aspects of Queers in History, but before we do, I like to ask all my guests today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Keith Stern

Oh, I suppose I would fall into the jaded category, for sure. I mean, 30 years in Hollywood does that to you, gay or not.

Queers in History (8:12)

Rob Loveless

I can only imagine. So, you had given us that great overview of Queers in History, starting as a diskette in the 90s, in 2009 released for the first time in print, and now in 2025 the revised, expanded edition that's been published in two volumes.

So, with all that in mind, what has it been like seeing it evolve over the past 30 years?

Keith Stern

Well, it's pretty amazing, because I never thought it would have a lifetime of more than three or four years, and I thought for sure by the time people read this book and understand that all these famous, important, influential, beloved people were gay, then it's going to make a big difference in the way that people perceive the LGBT community, and will have much greater acceptance.

And I think to some extent, all the work that everybody was doing all around the world in various different ways. I played my little part in it, and it seemed to have an impact.

And we seemed to be on the road to accomplishing some of those objectives of being accepted, more generally, by society.

And so, I thought the book would, you know, had a limited lifespan, and probably would be kind of boring after a few years, and people would say, oh, of course, we know so and so is gay.

What difference does it make? But as it turns out, there, there's probably more need for it today than ever because of the fact that almost a war has been declared on people who are different in any way. 

You speak a different language, you eat a different food, you have a different skin color, your hair looks different, whatever we seem to be in a society that's trying to conform, at least it's being forced to conform in certain ways, and it's nice to remember that some people were different.

Rob Loveless

And what does the growth about Queers in History, how it's expanded with all these individuals being added to it, what does that tell you about queer history that's been overlooked, rediscovered, and reshaped over time?

Keith Stern

I think the number of additions indicates that queer culture is a lot broader and wider than I ever suspected when I started.

It includes a much broader spectrum of people. I mean, I suppose when I started out, most of the people were gay men, because those are the people that a lot of history was written about.

And so, I really tried to make an effort to find gay women, lesbians, bisexuals, and I included, oh, about 1% of my original 900 entries in the paperback book were probably trans in one way or another. But that's not enough.

So, in exploring the subject, I've just really focused on trying to bring in those, those people who just weren't included in the first editions and and really to develop the stories of each individual, every one of them, because I tried not to include any boring people in the book, they're all interesting in one way or another.

And I try to find in their story how being gay or lesbian or bisexual or whatever, different in some way on that spectrum, how that affected them, how that impacted their work, how that changed the way they looked at the world.

And so, I've rewritten every single entry over 1000 now, and I've learned a lot. And so, exploring it's been a, been a, been a an adventure for me, and I think it's an adventure for the readers too, from the feedback that I get and the reviews, good reviews, too.

Transgender History (11:47)

Rob Loveless

And you had touched upon transgender representation in your answer there.

Trans individuals have especially been overlooked in history, and we're living in a time where what little trans history we've preserved is being erased.

You know, back in February of this year, the National Park Service removed references to transgender people, including the letter T from the LGBTQ+ acronym and the term queer from the website commemorating the Stonewall uprising.

But from the beginning, Queers in History has included trans people, but this 2025, edition is addressing some omissions from earlier versions.

So, can you tell us more about that and how you went about the process?

Keith Stern

The surprise to me was the amount of information that's available, if you're willing to look the acceptance of trans people really goes back all through history.

And particularly, I found that in America, in the US, even as early as the 1910s or the 1920s doctors were beginning to encounter this issue in people.

Psychiatrists and medical doctors were beginning to encounter this issue in people, and they took it very seriously for the most part, and they understood that some people, when they were born, they were either misidentified or miscategorized.

It's very easy to do when a when you're looking at an infant, and that decision be, you know, became kind of final for them.

And even as they grew up and had their own self-will and understood better about who they really were, they they were in a in a in a quandary, in a bind as what to as to what to do legally and medically, and so doctors were there to help, and surprisingly, kept a lot of records of what what was going on, so that that gave me a lot more to work with.

And you know, people were accepted for their accomplishments. They were accepted for who they were. They were accepted for how they could help.

I mean, one of the trans people in my book helped to eliminate tuberculosis from the US and I suppose, around the world. And another person was a very important international lawyer who had a big impact on the way that World War II started.

And so not only were they trans, but they were they participated in society, and they were recognized by society.

And anybody who thinks that this is something new or something strange needs to learn a little bit more about what was really going on back then. So, I hope my book does that to some extent.

Queer History & Politics (14:23)

Rob Loveless

You had mentioned that one of your early hopes was that society would someday fully acknowledge and integrate queer contributions so that this book would eventually become unnecessary.

Given the current political climate, how do you feel about that hope?

Keith Stern

That hope has been dashed. My book is not unnecessary, and I wouldn't have spent the past six or seven months working really hard on it.

I worked myself so hard that I had to call an ambulance at one point to kind of resuscitate me. And I really put a lot into it, just to bring it up to date.

So, I'm sad that I had to do that. But the work, the battle continues. The work goes on.

Rob Loveless

And we're living in a time where governments are actively erasing queer and trans visibility. So how does that reality shape the urgency of this book's existence today, 32 years after its first release?

Keith Stern

Yeah, well, to people who love history, history is sacred. And the truth is sacred, and we don't always have the truth, but we're always seeking the truth, and that doesn't seem to be the objective anymore. 

The objective of not only the US government, but some other governments around the world seems to be to rewrite history to suit their own purposes, whether those purposes are to make themselves feel better or make more money or whatever.

But history is the truth, and so the more of the truth we can get from our history, the better, and particularly LGBT+, history has been ignored, subjugated, made trivial.

Most, most historians will tell you that it doesn't matter that a person was gay. It didn't have any effect on their work or on their accomplishments, but I think my book disproves that statement.

It shows that they wouldn't have been who they were if they hadn't been gay.

Rob Loveless

Given the current political and cultural climate, how do you see the role of queer historians, writers, and archivists evolving over the next decade?

Keith Stern

Well, we just have to keep on fighting. We have to keep on battling. We have to keep on researching and publishing.

Just as people who are interested in civil other civil rights movements, the the issues of slavery in America, are being covered up, and it seems that every, every minority, we all have to, you know, fight for our place at the table, our place in the room, whatever we want to, however, we want to participate in society, We need to fight to continue to to be included and to be understood and not to be trivialized. 

So that's the role of a historian, is to put things in perspective so that you understand that what's happening today is not necessarily very different from what has happened in the past.

And as one of the people in my book said, you know, those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it,

Queer History & Pride (17:29)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I think that's a good segue into this next question. We're at Pride. I feel like this year Pride, we're going back to our roots a little bit, where we're more about raising our voices and really seeking to be activists, as opposed to just going out, getting drunk, and partying.

So, as we celebrate Pride in 2025 what role do you see queer history playing in the movement?

Keith Stern

Well, I hope it does remind people that it's, life is not always just a party. And we had it pretty good for a while.

I think in the US as gay people, we felt that we had won the battle for acceptance, equality, gay marriage, a lot of big issues were were decided in our favor.

And to see it all slip away means, you know, we have to return to our activist roots, the you know when, when AIDS was an issue in the 80s, it's still an issue today, of course, but there was a lot of activism around that issue among younger people. The younger people really, they have to fight for their future. 

Older people need to fight too. But it's up, it's it as always, it's going to be up to the younger people. And so, I think that Pride has to be dedicated to the future, and the future is in the LGBT+ youth.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And Pride often focuses on present-day visibility. But how can learning about LGBTQ+ people throughout time help strengthen today's activism and identity?

Keith Stern

Well, I think, I think it can provide young people a bit of confidence that despite the supposed handicap of being different, being gay, you can accomplish anything.

You can be a billionaire if that's really what you want to do. There are several billionaires in my book, but or you can be the top of your profession, whatever it may be, an actor, a doctor, a business person, a lawyer.

There are examples of every kind of accomplished person in my book, and as role models, you've got over 1000 of them in this in the two volumes of this one book. So that's how I would see see that working out.

Discover Queer History (19:41)

Rob Loveless

For younger generations just discovering queer history, what do you want them to learn or take away from Queers in History?

Keith Stern

That being different is not necessarily a bad thing. If you're bullied, stand up to them. Try not to get into situations where you could be physically harmed.

But you, I think you'll find that most bullies retreat when you stand up for yourself, and that's what we need to do as a country right now, as a matter of fact.

But young people can take can find 1001 role models in in these books, this is a two-volume set. So, you know, feel free to be yourself. That's very important.

Almost all of these prominent people, with a few notable exceptions, stayed true to themselves, and the more honest they were with their friends, their family, their associates, the happier they were.

And I think you'll find that a pattern that repeats itself through hit through through history and going forward.

Rob Loveless

And what are your hopes for how we as a culture engage with queer stories and legacies moving forward?

Keith Stern

I think they should. I'm a little bit in favor of integration. That is, I think individuals should be individuals and have their own way of doing things and looking at things, but we all want to participate in society on an equal footing.

And I'm not a divider. I don't think we should be divided into all these different chunks, but we're all part of the tapestry of the bigger history, and we need to get equal time.

So that's the main thing to me, is that these stories be incorporated into larger history and acknowledged as important.

You cannot minimize the fact that a Black person, an African American is is is affected their work is affected by the way they grew up, by the challenges they encountered, by the challenges, challenges they overcame.

And so, I mean my, my ultimate objection would be just to have a society that tolerates and appreciates everybody.

Episode Closing (21:57)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, the Seven of Swords. Again, Swords is all about our thoughts, ideas, and communication. But when we get this card, it's warning us of possible deception or trickery.

And I think, as we talked about in today's episode, there's been a tendency of overlooking queer history. And we're living in a time where the current administration is trying to erase our history altogether.

And I think that's really an example of someone lying and deceiving others, acting like queer people have not existed forever, or trying to villainize queer people in an effort to push their own agenda.

So, it's really up to us to listen to our intuition, to know what's right, and to find ways that we can raise our voices, speak up and out against erasure, and really promote the queer history we fought so hard to have in the first place.

Again, the number seven, it's all about inspired action and our inner magic.

So, we really need to find ways to promote the honesty and truthfulness around these queer historical figures, so that we not only preserve our past but also fuel our ambition for continuing our progress towards true equality.

Excerpt from Queers in History (22:57)

Rob Loveless

Well, Keith, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been a great conversation. As we're coming to the end of the episode.

Can you read an excerpt from Queers in History that is something that's very meaningful to you?

Keith Stern

Well, I'll read one of my favorites, which I was very surprised, because when I heard rumors that Abraham Lincoln, the 16th president of the US, was gay, I thought, sure.

You know, I thought, I'll spend half an hour, I'll look into it, and I'll find out there's no basis for this rumor at all. He was happily married. He had children. Then again, so was Oscar Wilde.

And the surprise of my life, I think, was when I looked further into it and found more and more information that would indicate that old, honest Abe was not only gay, but quite content to be gay and not too concerned if what people thought about him in that regard, and he, you know, he was mainly concerned with just living his life and doing his best.

And so, I'll read a little, I'll read the excerpt from my book, Queers in History:

“Abraham Lincoln is included in this book because, after extensive research in 19th century, documents, newspapers, and books, I've concluded the 16th US president was queer. No, I wasn't there and no, I don't have any photos to prove Lincoln was gay, but I have documented undisputed facts that have been ignored or covered up by most historians for over 160 years.

I think a reasonable examination of those facts reveals that not only was Honest Abe a gay man, but he was comfortable with his sexual orientation, and it had a big impact on how he conducted his life and the US Civil War. Here, I'll read something for you. It's the earliest gay poem known in US history. Ruben and Charles have married two girls, but Billy has married a boy.

The girls he had tried on every side, but none could he get to agree. All was in vain. He went home again, and since then he's married to Natty. So, Billy and Natty agreed very well, and Mom is well pleased with the match. The egg it is laid, but Natty is afraid the shell is so soft it never will hatch.

Now, that's an excerpt from a poem published in Indiana in 1829, it's kind of racy. Caused quite a stir in the neighborhood, and remembered long after the poet went on to bigger things. That's right, a poem about two young men who get married and try to have a baby. Maybe the earliest gay-themed poem known in US literature written by none other than a 20-year-old Abraham Lincoln.

We know about Abe's gay poem because it was included in the first edition of one of the earliest biographies of the president written by William Herndon, who had known Lincoln well. Mysteriously, it was left out of later editions for nearly 33 years and almost forgotten today.

You might be able to read that poem on Wikipedia, except somebody keeps deleting the links to the article about Lincoln's sexuality. I expect that whole Wiki article may disappear someday, maybe for another 33 years, but here's a little bit more of Abe's story. On April 15, 1837, an impoverished Abraham Lincoln, 28 years old, arrived in Springfield, Illinois to set up his own law practice.

One of his first stops was at the general store, where he thought he might buy a bed. Standing behind the counter was a 22-year-old man, the shopkeeper, Joshua Fry Speed. Speed totaled up the cost of the bed, mattress, blankets, pillows, etc., to be a whopping $17. Well, that was a lot of money back then, and Abe simply didn't have it.

As Speed later recalled when he looked across the counter, quote, I never saw a sadder face. Lincoln asked if he might buy the bed on credit. But Josh had a better idea. Taking Lincoln by the hand, he led him up the steps to his living quarters above the store, showed him the small room with a bed in the corner, and said, why don't you just sleep here with me?

And the two men continued to live and sleep together for nearly four years in that bed, in that room. Was it common for men to share a bed in those days? Not really. Some historians note that it was common for men to sleep together in those days due to a shortage of beds, but they failed to recognize that many of those men were also lovers.

It's true, as men traveled around, they might arrive at a roadside Inn where there was a lack of space, so they might be forced to share a room or even a bed with one or two other men for the night. There were many jokes about what went on in those shared beds, too.

But it was very unusual for two grown men to happily sleep together at home for so long, the way that Abe and Josh did, and it's not like Joshua Speed couldn't afford an extra bed. After all, he was a bed salesman. He was practically the Sealy Posturepedic of Springfield, Illinois.

Nearly four years later, Abe learned that Josh was leaving him and going back to his native Kentucky. Abe was devastated and suffered symptoms of what today we would call a nervous breakdown, an episode known to historians as Lincoln's fatal first, because it occurred on January 1, 1841. Well, New Year's Day is not one of my favorites either.

By the way, there is not a shred of evidence to support the contention of some historians that Lincoln also broke off an engagement with Mary Todd or suffered any of the other myriad setbacks that some have postulated to explain what upset him on that fateful day, other than the well documented impending separation from Speed. Lincoln was depressed, perhaps even suicidal, and he wrote, quote, I am now the most miserable man living.

Whether I shall ever be better, I cannot tell. I awfully forebode, I shall not. To remain as I am is impossible. I must die or be better, it appears to me. At that time, Lincoln was almost 32 and Speed was 26 so this was no childhood phase. In fact, the two men remained close until the end of Lincoln's life. As Abe grew older, he continued to have intimate relationships with other men. As President, Lincoln formed a close attachment to a soldier, Captain David V Derrickson, who was the commander of his guards.

In 1862 and 1863 they shared a bed in the White House and a getaway cottage at the outskirts of town. You can be certain there were plenty of extra beds in the White House. What did people think about it at the time? Lincoln's same-sex relationships did not go unnoticed by contemporaries and early biographers.

Virginia Woodbury Fox, a well-connected Washingtonian, wrote in an 1862 diary entry, quote Tisch says, there is a bucktail soldier here devoted to the president drives with him, and when Mrs. L is not home, sleeps with him. What stuff. Even 30 years later, Thomas Chamberlain, one of Lincoln's bodyguards, remembered the relationship of the two men when he wrote the history of the regiment.

Quote, Captain Derrickson, in particular, advanced so far in the President's confidence and esteem that in Mrs. Lincoln's absence, he frequently spent the night at his cottage, sleeping in the same bed with him, and it is said making use of his Excellency's nightshirt. Scandalous stuff.

Some historians like to say these observers and others were not implying a sexual relationship, only that the two men were exceptionally close friends, and was perhaps slightly improper for a common soldier to become so close to the President.

But the fact that people of the time invariably noted that the men slept together only when Mrs. Lincoln was not around, indicates they had an inkling of what was going on. They were aware that the relationship was somehow hidden from his wife and perhaps a substitute for Lincoln's terrible marriage to Mary Todd. What difference does it make if Abe was gay?

One of the more notable aspects of Lincoln's personality was his discretion. He maintained an air of mystery, even secrecy, such that no one ever claimed to know what he was really thinking. On the one hand, he felt compelled to know every detail about the circumstances surrounding him, these traits which may have been related to his desire to somewhat obscure his sexual orientation, served him well as the hands-on commander-in-chief during the Civil War.

We will likely never know for sure if Abraham Lincoln had sexual relations with those men, but it seems clear he had a passionate desire for same-sex intimacy, to an extent that attracted notice among the people who knew him.”

Rob Loveless

Again, that is an excerpt from queers in history by Keith Stern.

Connect with Keith (31:24)

Rob Loveless

Keith, thank you again, so much for coming on today. Can you tell all the listeners where they can learn more about you, connect with you, and buy the book?

Keith Stern

Well, I enjoyed my visit here with you today, and it's easiest to find it right on Amazon.

Well, you can go to the website queersinhistory.com and that will guide you to links where you can find out more about the book and other things that I've done.

I did publish a memoir last year, which was kind of a funny thing to do, but in fact, that memoir stimulated more interest in my older books, including particularly Queers in History, and really got me off the sofa and to the typewriter to update the book, and so you'll find out a lot more about me, more than you ever want to know.

But queersinhistory.com is the best place to go and just click on Get the Book, and there you go.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. And all that information will be in the show notes. So, once you're done listening, definitely go check out Queers in History. I think it's a great way to reconnect with the spirit of Pride this June.

Keith Stern

Happy Pride.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (32:25)

Rob Loveless

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Mmm-bye.