154. Pride and Protest: Defending LGBTQ+ Rights in a Shifting America (with Mari Nemec)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Mari Nemec

The litigators and the litigation shops like Lambda Legal are really the boxers who are in the ring.

They're the ones in the courtroom making these arguments, fighting this fight, and we're the folks who are just outside the ring with a towel and a water bottle, making sure that they're hydrated, that they're safe, that if they get injured, we can take care of them.

Episode Introduction (0:38)

Rob Loveless  

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay because the street saga continues.

There is just so much chaos happening on my street. They have been filling in parts of the concrete on the sidewalks.

Even though they said they can't do the full sidewalk, they've done about 60 to 70% of the sidewalk, mostly because the construction crews have damaged the sidewalks.

So, they had to repair additional parts they weren't planning for. And the ones that they did redo, they did wrong. So, they had to redo those ones.

And now there's rumors that apparently, they have to dig it all up and put new pipes in. I don't know. It's a mess, and I am losing my mind.

LGBTQ+ Rights (1:18)

Rob Loveless  

But moving on from justice for my street, let's talk about justice for the LGBTQ+ community.

Obviously, as we've seen over the past few months, there have been just continued attacks against the LGBTQ+ community and DEI rollbacks, and so Pride this year is feeling very different.

And I think it's really a time where we're really kind of reconnecting with the roots of Pride, which is all about the activism, the protest, and the resistance.

And as we continue into Pride Month, I thought it was really important to talk to somebody who really has some insight regarding the state of LGBTQ+ rights and what the LGBTQ+ legal community is doing to meet this movement.

So, we will get to that in a minute. But before we do, you know the drill. Tarot time.

Tarot (2:02)

Rob Loveless  

So today, we drew the Eight of Swords in reverse. As a reminder, Swords is tied to the element of air, which is all about our thoughts, ideas, and how we communicate.

It's masculine energy, so it's very action-oriented. And in numerology, eight represents infinity, success, and power.

Just think the number eight looks like the infinity symbol, so our energy is always flowing through us. 

And when we draw the Eight of Swords in reverse, it's indicating that we might be succumbing to limiting beliefs that are preventing us from moving forward.

So, this card is letting us know that we need to avoid these energy blockages that are causing us to stagnate.

Instead, we need to identify opportunities to take meaningful action that will allow us to overcome these limiting beliefs so we can move forward.

Guest Introduction (2:45)

Rob Loveless  

And with that in mind, I'm very excited to welcome our next guest. She is Advocacy Counsel for the National LGBTQ+ Bar Association. Hi, Mari. How are you today?

Mari Nemec

I'm doing so good. How are you?

Rob Loveless

Doing well, thanks. It's finally sunny in Philadelphia after a downpour this afternoon, so hopefully the weather will stay like this as we're getting into the summer months.

But something else that we want to shine some light on today is the state of equality for LGBTQ+ people, especially from a legislation perspective.

So, I'm very excited to have you on today. I think this is a really impactful conversation we're going to have as we're in Pride Month. Now, lots to get into.

I'm jumping ahead, so before I kind of jump right into the topic, I wanted to kick off the episode.

If you could just introduce yourself to the listeners, tell them all about yourself, how you identify, your background, pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Mari Nemec, and my pronouns are she/her/hers. I am a lesbian, and I am the Advocacy Council for the National LGBTQ+ Bar Association.

So, I'm based out of Washington, DC, and I live just almost exactly a block right outside of DC in Maryland, but I've been in this area for almost my whole life.

We moved around a bit when I was a kid, but ever since I was 11, I've been in and out of the DC area, other than a brief trek to Tucson, Arizona, for law school.

But after law school, I came back out here with my now wife, and for about a year, I worked at a different organization.

I worked at Alliance for Justice, doing judicial nominations work, before coming back home to the National LGBTQ+ Bar, which I've been involved with on and off for almost eight years now, I think, and I really, really love the work that I do here.

But outside of work, I am very passionate about reality TV. I also am very passionate about my dog. She's a blue heeler. Her name is Matilda Fig, and she's my whole world.

And then I'm also a bit of a grandma. I love to cross-stitch and crochet. So yeah, those are some fun facts about me.

Rob Loveless

I relate with that entirely. I love my reality TV. I love kind of my grandpa crafts. So, it seems like we're on the same page there.

And you mentioned your wife. You are also a recent newlywed. So, congratulations on that.

Mari Nemec

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm very happy to be a newlywed. I enjoyed my wedding immensely, but I did not enjoy the wedding planning, so I'm happy to be on this side.

Rob Loveless

Well, happy you made it out to the other side. Got through all the stressful planning, and now you can just enjoy the nuptials and the honeymoon to come.

Mari Nemec

Absolutely.

Rob Loveless

And I like to ask all my guests today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Mari Nemec

That's such a good question. It's hard, because I feel like, how can one not be a jaded gay these days, you know? But I'm trying really hard to work on positivity and finding hope.

And I actually, you know, I don't know if it is the recent wedding and, you know, being surrounded by so much love and queer joy that's making me feel very hopeful these days.

But I think, you know, it's almost in the difficult times when you're most jaded that you're able to find hope, I think, and so I am a somewhat jaded gay.

I have hope that I will one day no longer be jaded. So that's how I'm feeling today.

Rob Loveless

I think that's a fair answer, and you hit the nail on the head, given the state of the world, like you want to stay informed.

You want to know what's going on, but you can't look at the news too long 'cause it's all doom and gloom.

And I think now more than ever, it's important to find those moments of queer joy, whether it's something big and exciting, like a wedding, or just something small, like getting an iced coffee and a new plant or, you know, crocheting or something like that.

So, we have to find those happy moments when we can.

Mari Nemec

Absolutely.

The National LGBTQ+ Bar (6:21)

Rob Loveless

Well, kicking it right off. You told us a little bit about your work with the National LGBTQ+ Bar Association. So, can you tell us a little bit more about the organization and its mission?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, absolutely. The National LGBTQ+ Bar Association is a nationwide network of legal professionals and affiliated organizations dedicated to promoting justice and equity for the diverse LGBTQ+ community through advocacy, education, and collaboration within the legal profession.

I think that we're probably most known for our annual conference and career fair, Lavender Law. That's at least what people always mention to me, if they've heard of the LGBTQ+ Bar, and I understand why it's a fantastic event.

It's a three-day conference that we put on every summer in kind of rotating cities. This year it's going to be New York City, and we have one day that's dedicated to a really robust career fair that is really fantastic because queer law students and legal professionals looking for something new can shop around with employers that they know will be affirming and supportive of them, which is a really great thing. 

And then we also have two full days of really strong programming addressing kind of the intersection of the LGBTQ+ community and the law. And I also just love it so much, because it's it, you know, it always kind of feels like a family reunion, because the the queer legal world is actually very tiny, and so you always see the same people every year, but it's fairly large.

We have between 2,000 and 2,500 attendees. So, it's a pretty big conference, and as far as we know, it's the largest LGBTQ+ legal conference in the world. So, I understand why it's why everybody knows us. But we also do year-round programming.

We have lots of webinars that we put on for practitioners and for students. We have a great affiliate program for state and local LGBTQ+ bars and bar sections. And we also have affiliate groups at law school campuses across the country.

We have a really fantastic Family Law Institute, too, which is a great collection of experts on LGBTQ+ family law who meet regularly, and they're all listed on our website. We run that in collaboration with the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

And then a lot of my work at the bar revolves around our advocacy efforts. And I think that traditionally, when people think about advocacy, they think about lobbying and, you know, things around legislation or actively being in court. And that isn't so much what I do.

I do more work within the legal profession and legal system to make it more accessible and equitable for LGBTQ+ people. So some examples of that, my kind of like baby from the last year and a half of work is a forthcoming comprehensive LGBTQ+ bench guide, which is essentially going to be a 70 page document or resource for judges who are looking for more information on how to have a more inclusive courtroom, how to meaningfully interact with LGBTQ+ people, whether those are jurors or attorneys or parties in a case, just ways to kind of address some of the long standing and institutional harms and distrust between the LGBTQ+ community and the court system.

So that's one example of my work, and another example is we recently launched an Executive Order litigation tracker that's tracking all of the lawsuits against the administration's really harmful anti-LGBTQ+ executive orders, so that both legal practitioners and the community are aware of of where all of that stands. So that's just a little window into into the work that we do.

Rob Loveless

That's really impressive work that you're doing. And I was especially excited to connect with you because the LGBTQ+ Bar, I've referenced them in a ton of past episodes regarding legislation, especially around LGBTQ+ Panic Defense, a little bit about Obergefell v Hodges, I think, as well some of the discriminatory practices of the ban on gay blood donations.

So, I was super excited to connect. And you know, that's just a sampling, I know of everything that your organization does.

Legal Victories for the LGBTQ+ Community (10:28)

Rob Loveless

So, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about the role that the LGBTQ+ Bar has played in past legal victories for the community?

Mari Nemec

Of course. You know, I think first and foremost, we are a representative organization, so we represent our membership across the country, and as such, we're really a voice for the LGBTQ+ legal profession. 

And I think that that comes out most when it comes to, you know, the major legal victories of the past decade, or a few decades, in the amicus briefs that will sign on to or submit for a lot of these really significant Supreme Court cases or other appellate cases.

You know, we're not the folks who are in the room making the arguments and signing on as attorneys in the cases themselves, but these amicus briefs are essentially opportunities for parties who are not directly involved in the case to still make their voice heard to the court.

To, you know, provide additional context, or to say, you know, hey, the outcome of this case is really going to impact our membership in, you know, X, Y, Z way. And we think that the court should know about that as they consider the issues in this case.

So that's one way that we have some direct involvement, but for the vast majority of our work, when it comes to, you know, these significant legal victories, we really are the support system for the litigators. And for anybody unfamiliar with the legal world, litigators are kind of the TV lawyers.

You know, they're the ones who are in court making the arguments. They're the real ones, kind of leading the charge.

And so our role is to kind of be in the background, supporting them, connecting communities, making sure that they have the resources that they need, that, you know, from the moment that they apply to law school till the moment that they're in the courtroom, they're supported and have a network behind them to connect them with with you know, experts, to make sure that they're able to advance in their careers, to get to the position where they're able to argue in front of the Supreme Court, and all of that kind of good work.

We also do a lot of work around raising awareness of these issues in these cases, a lot of educational work, both for others in the, in the legal community, and for what I lovingly call lay people who who don't speak all this legal jargon to kind of make sense of what these cases mean and what they mean for the community, both before we know the outcome of them, and then once we do know the outcome of them.

So those are all some of the roles that we play. I think the best way to think about the Bar's role in, you know, the larger LGBTQ+ rights movement, especially when it comes to legal cases, if you'll indulge in a sports metaphor with me, which, admittedly, my favorite sports channel is Bravo.

So, I, if I butcher this, I'm sorry to any boxing fans, but the litigators, you know, the and the litigation shops like Lambda Legal are really the boxers who are in the ring.

They're the ones in the courtroom making these arguments, fighting this fight, and we're the folks who are just outside the ring, you know, with the towel and a water bottle, making sure that they're hydrated, that they're safe, that if they get injured, you know, we can take care of them and stuff like that.

So, it's more of kind of that supportive role, building up the institution to get those folks to the point where they're in the courtroom. Because I think something that not a lot of people are aware of is that for a lot of our history, the vast majority of people who were arguing these cases weren't always queer. 

There have been significant amount of queer people who were arguing these cases. But, you know, even this year, Chase Strangio was the first openly transgender person to argue before the Supreme Court, and it was for a case on a major case on transgender rights, United States versus Skrmetti.

And so, getting to that point involved a lot of work within the legal profession, in the legal system. So, so those are some of the ways that we contribute to the movement.

Rob Loveless

And I really appreciate that analogy, because I admittedly am not a big sports person either.

So, when you said Bravo was your favorite sports channel, my mind immediately went to Kyle Richards in that DirecTV commercial where she's running down the football field screaming, I just want to talk.

Mari Nemec

Yeah, I can. I can picture Teresa in that commercial, too. I know exactly.

Rob Loveless

Who flips a table? But I really appreciate that analogy. And I think you bring up a really good point.

You know, when we've done some pop culture episodes in the past, we've talked about how traditionally, there's been a lack of representation, not even in front of the cameras, but people who are writing the scripts or producing the movies.

Do they have an idea of the marginalization that they're representing on camera? You know, do we have queer actors in the room? Do we have queer writers in the room?

And I know there's been a concern, obviously, on Capitol Hill, who's there representing us, but I don't think that for myself, anyway, I haven't really thought about, okay, the lawyers that are in these cases, that are arguing this, are they a member of our community who can really understand where we're coming from.

Because while there are a lot of allies out there who do want to do good work, I do think there is a different level of understanding being a person within the LGBTQ+ community versus somebody who's just an ally on the outside.

LGBTQ+ Legal Rights in the Current Political Climate (15:28)

Rob Loveless

So, going off of that, obviously, I maybe should have given a disclaimer at the beginning, although I think from the title, it's pretty obvious this is this is going to be a little bit more heavy of a political episode.

So, given the current political climate, what we're seeing with the current administration, what is the LGBTQ+ legal community experiencing right now, and how is the LGBTQ+ Bar stepping up to meet this moment?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, that's a huge question. There's so much that I could talk about, but I think, you know, first and foremost, we have to address that, you know, the transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming members of our community are being openly and explicitly targeted and dehumanized, and they're attempting to erase those folks from public life, which is incredibly scary on so many levels.

And it, you know, this is something that has been a trend for a long time, but is reaching, you know, an intensity now that hasn't existed in the last 10 years. And I think that that not only is like a conversation happening at the national level, but it's also something that's very present in the legal profession right now as well.

At the end of the day, lawyers are just people too, and it's not like we can just cut off, you know, our identities when we walk into the office.

So especially for for trans attorneys and law students right now, who are already having such a difficult time personally managing that fear, that anger, that sadness, trying to navigate how to keep themselves and their communities safe, then having to come into work or into school and very demanding environments is really hard, and it makes it hard to do your job.

And I think that you know kind of hand in hand with that, we're seeing significant rollback of a lot of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives that really made firm environments, and you know, all the various places that lawyers work a lot more accessible and friendly to queer people, and especially to trans and non-binary people.

With the ratio of a lot of those DEI initiatives, there comes a, a significant and sudden lack of safety and comfortability at work. People don't feel as as able to be open about who they are and maybe bring as many ideas to the table in the work environment.

And there's also just fewer opportunities. You know, a lot of those programs had really great practices when it came to hiring, and especially when it came to fellowships, and, you know, summer positions for law students that are disappearing, and all of that creates an environment that they can be really stifling for, for LGBTQ+ legal professionals, but also for for everybody.

You know, it's not just queer people who are impacted by the rollback of DEI programs. It's also people from other strategically devalued communities who are feeling that pain, and it's really anybody who values working at a space where you know, they and their coworkers are all comfortable and feel safe and feel seen and can be themselves and are acknowledged as the people that they are, and not just, you know, employees.

And so, I think that that is a real detriment to the legal profession, because it sends a message that there are certain people who don't belong in the legal profession, which is just not true, and it's also just bad for business. I think that a lot of people perceive the legal profession as a really dry, boring, you know, profession where we all just kind of sit around and read the law, and that's it.

But it's super creative. It's really dynamic. And the best lawyers are the ones who can think really creatively and come up with innovative ideas and arguments. And that's going to happen when you have teams that are composed of people from a variety of experiences and backgrounds, both personal and professional.

When there are more seats at the table and more voices being heard, there's going to be more ideas and more creativity, and that's going to lead to stronger legal arguments, which is going to lead to more people wanting to work at that firm. It's going to lead to more clients wanting to be represented by that firm.

So, it's really, it's not only a detriment to queer people to roll back these DEI initiatives and kind of abandon that commitment, it's also a detriment to the legal profession as a whole, because we're not getting the same robust, dynamic creativity that we get when people are able to flourish in their workplace.

And I think, as for the second part of your question about, you know, how the bar is meeting this moment, I think first and foremost, our membership is definitely meeting the moment. You know, law schools, or law students, rather, across the country, are organizing on their campuses.

They're advocating for themselves and for their peers, and they're, you know, forming new student groups, revitalizing old student groups, and our members, who are practitioners, are also in courtrooms every day, whether it's at the national level or just at local municipal court, arguing for the continued safety and civil rights of LGBTQ+ people in various capacities.

And I'm really, really proud of our members for doing that. And at the Bar, you know, we are, we are not backing down at all. I think that there was some fear earlier this year that, you know, LGBTQ+ groups, we're going to kind of abandon trans people.

Because it's scary right now to be supporting trans people, but we are absolutely doing the opposite. And from what I've seen, a lot of other organizations also are doubling down and saying, no, these are important members of our communities.

They're important members of our families, and they are us. You know, we are not going to back down from advocating for our trans members, and we're also not going to back down from our DEI work. We're doubling down on that, too, because we know that it makes the profession better.

We know that it makes the country better when we value everybody's voice. And we're also really focused right now on education and awareness, because there's a lot of fear in the community, a lot of very valid fear, but I think that fear exists when people are kind of in an unknown place, when they don't know what's coming, they don't know what a certain law means for them, they don't know how an executive order is going to impact them, or whether it's able to change the law, which it's not.

And so, when we provide people with more information and we clarify what all these things that they're hearing in the news means, I think that that helps to ease some of the fear and allows people to begin to plan to keep themselves and their families safe.

And so that's why we created the tool like our Executive Order Tracker, so that people know what's happening with executive orders and what that all means.

That's why Lavender Law this year is going to be really focused on kind of these cutting edge issues that we're facing right now as a community, and that's why we're also keeping up the good and quiet work, you know, like the bench guide that I mentioned, I also meet regularly with law students or people who are interested in law school to talk about what law school is like, connect them with resources, plug them into networks, and that all isn't super glamorous work.

That's like directly addressing what's happening right now at the federal and at state level. But it is important work to continue life as normal, because I think right now, folks are trying to make us feel like we can't continue life, but we can, and that's important.

What are Executive Orders? (22:55)

Rob Loveless

And you had mentioned the executive order tracker, we're seeing an administration that loves issuing executive orders like they're penny candy.

And there's a lot of confusion over okay, an executive order's issued. What does this mean?

So, I was wondering, can you tell us a little bit more about what exactly an executive order is and how it impacts our legislation?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, I can do my best. I'm not an expert on this, but executive orders, I think first and foremost, it's important that people know that they do not create new laws, and they do not change existing laws.

It's essentially the executive branch setting forth the policy that they want the executive branch to implement. So that is federal agencies. That's the cabinet, and so what happens then is an agency will implement a new policy.

So, a good example is with the executive order that was targeting the ability for trans people to obtain accurate travel documents, that led to the State Department implementing a new policy regarding gender markers on travel documents.

And so, the response to that from our advocates is to sue and to say that, you know, those policy changes are unconstitutional for X, Y, Z reasons. And then that plays out in court, and we see what happens, but it doesn't lead to an immediate and unchangeable change in the law, if that makes sense.

And I think that that's an important thing for people to know. And I think that this comes up a lot. I've heard a lot of people who are really concerned, for instance, about, I know this is a little off track, but about marriage equality and what's going to happen to that, if that's something they can, you know, in a day, just go away.

And I think that this is a place where education and knowledge is really helpful, because the reality is that that's not going to happen. You know, it takes a long time. It took so long for for marriage equality to happen in the first place. It would also take a long time for it to go away. It's a very lengthy process.

And, you know, when you see headlines about, you know, specific state legislators asking the Supreme Court to overturn it and stuff, that's not how that works.

And so that's why it's really important to us as an organization to be providing people with information to kind of let people know what they should be afraid of and what they don't need to be afraid of right now and and what they should be doing to protect themselves.

Rob Loveless

Thank you. That was a really good explanation, and I appreciate it, because obviously, every day there's a new executive order, and you're like, okay, do I need to react to this immediately, or is it something to worry about down the road?

Because there is so much going on and going off of that point, you had mentioned earlier that there's been, especially within the community, against trans members, non-binary people, attacks against them, as well as DEI rollbacks from this administration.

Current Threats to LGBTQ+ Legal Rights (25:41)

Rob Loveless

So, with that in mind, I was wondering if you could share some more specifics of the current threats to LGBTQ+ rights and protections under the current administration, and what we as a community should especially be aware of right now?

Mari Nemec

Yeah. So again, we need to be primarily concerned about the transgender community right now. They are the most vulnerable members of our community at the moment, and they are very clearly and explicitly under direct attack from this administration and from various states across the country.

I think that it's very clear that the current administration wants to make it impossible to be trans in public life, and they're doing that through attempted bathroom bans, sports bans, travel bans, really dangerous and hateful rhetoric that is aimed at dehumanizing trans people.

And you know, I think a really key part of that is trying to make access to vital medical treatment difficult or impossible for trans people.

And I think that that is certainly where, where we're focusing our energy, and where I'm focusing my energy is around doing what we can to protect the trans community at this moment. And I think it's important to remember that this isn't a new thing.

It's definitely escalated in the last six months, but since 2015, really, since Obergefell was decided, there's been a really concerted effort to target trans people and to dehumanize trans people and to to use trans people as a way of devaluing the entire LGBTQ+ community.

So, it really is an issue that, you know, all of us should care, because we should all care about trans people. But you know, what happens to trans people, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens to everybody in the community.

And so, we really, really need to be focused on on those issues right now, and not just at the federal level. Like I mentioned, state governments are implementing the same kinds of things that we're seeing at the federal level.

So, you know, even looking at ACLU's state legislation tracker from the last session over, I think it was 577 anti-LGBTQ+ bills were introduced across the country, and the vast majority of those were anti-trans, you know, targeting trans people and non-binary people.

And so that definitely is, it's the focus of people who are going after our community right now, so it needs to be the focus of our community as well. And I think, in addition to that, we also really need to be paying attention to what's happening to LGBTQ+ immigrants and asylum seekers, and refugees. That is incredibly scary right now, too.

They're very, very vulnerable members of our community who are, you know, in positions where some of them are being forcibly sent back to places where they are not safe, or to brand new places where they are not safe with no regard for their legal status at all in some instances, and it's really important that we make sure those folks are given the full protection that they're owed under the law.

So that's definitely a place that that I think that queer people should be focusing their attention right now. And finally, the medical system, I think that that's something that's flown a little bit under the radar so far, but there's a lot of really things, scary things happening to our health system, both in terms of research and in programs that are offered.

A lot of programs that are designed to prevent the spread of HIV and to support HIV+ people are being gutted right now, as are lots of other programs that do a lot for people's health, whether those are directly connected to being LGBTQ+ or are just, you know, LGBTQ+ people are people.

We get cancer too, you know, we need to have routine screenings. All of that stuff impacts us, and it especially impacts the most vulnerable members of our community who have disabilities or have chronic, chronic medical conditions.

So those are all the places that I'm I'm really focusing my energy and trying to increase awareness about right now.

Hope for LGBTQ+ Legal Rights (29:32)

Rob Loveless

It seems like every day you turn on the news and there's something new and scary going on, and it's definitely important that we're mindful of those things.

But I was wondering if there have been any recent victories or legal advancements that have given the LGBTQ+ community reason to be hopeful?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, there definitely have been, and I think that's really important to talk about. So, we have seen some success in the courts, at least at the time of this recording, things are mostly going well. We got some disappointing news last week from the Supreme Court regarding the trans military ban.

But overall, a lot of the litigation that's pushing back against these really harmful anti-LGBTQ+ executive orders is successful so far. Those orders are being met with a lot of preliminary injunctions, which essentially are a court saying you can't implement this policy until this case reaches some kind of conclusion. So that means that those harmful policies are on hold, at least for the time being.

And it's also a positive sign that there's a reason that the court thinks that that this might not be a constitutional thing, so it's a reason to have hope for the future for sure. And we've seen those kinds of injunctions happening in regards to gender affirming care bans, travel document policies, and carceral housing for trans folks. So there definitely is, is some success being seen there.

Something that also has, I don't know if it's given me hope so much as it's been a relief to me. I know that myself and a lot of other lawyers that I know, back in kind of January and February, were really concerned that this administration was just going to completely throw out the rule of law, which essentially is the idea that that nobody is above the law, not even the president, and that we all have to follow court orders that you can't just disregard a court order.

And while I absolutely will acknowledge that we've had some pretty high-profile examples of this administration not following court orders, it has not been nearly to the extent that we were really afraid that it would be. And that isn't to say that in the future, we might get to that place.

I hope we don't, because that's a really scary place to be in. But right now, at least, it seems like our courts are holding and are acting as a check on this administration, which is really good to see and definitely gives me hope for the future.

And then I also find a lot of hope right now, you know, in the tireless advocates that are fighting this, both the legal advocates and folks working in other professions to support people, whether it's, you know, people working in refugee resettlement, whether it's medical professionals who are still keeping up the good work and doing their jobs and and showing up for the community.

You know, I talked earlier about the Skrmetti case, and while at the time of this recording, we don't know the outcome of it, I think that that case is something I keep coming back to as a source of hope, which might sound strange to any legal minded people listening to this, because there's a lot of concern about how that's going to go.

But for anybody unfamiliar, that's the case before the Supreme Court that's asking whether a Tennessee Bill prohibiting gender affirming care for all transgender minors violates the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

But no matter how that case goes, I mean, obviously, I'm hoping for a positive outcome for our community. But even if it isn't, the fact that we got to the Supreme Court, the fact that Chase Strangio argued that case before the Supreme Court, all gives me hope.

And more than anything, you know, I was there the day of the oral arguments outside the Supreme Court, at the peaceful rally, and just being there surrounded by so much love, seeing queer family, seeing trans kids who are happy and dancing and so supported by everybody around them, just totally embracing themselves and proud of themselves, gave me so much hope.

Because no matter what people throw at us, no matter what executive orders come out, no matter what legislation is passed, no matter what the Supreme Court decides this term, they're never going to take away our joy and our sense of community and the fact that we're here.

You know, there's a concerted effort to erase trans people, but to erase all queer people, and that just isn't going to happen. You just can't do that. We've always been here. We're always going to be here. And I know that that's a really old adage, but I think that that's something that we can all look to for hope.

The Evolution of Pride (34:02)

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And I think those examples really highlight the importance of advocacy, which ties into the themes of Pride.

And I think for a little while now, maybe the community post-marriage equality thinks great Pride is just a party, but really the roots are very political, and I do think that going into this year, it's felt different for me personally.

I, you know, looking on Instagram, I've seen Instagram stories, I think it's feeling different for a lot of, you know, LGBTQ+ people out there.

So, I was wondering, with that in mind, how do you think Pride has evolved over the years in response to political pressures, and why is activism still so central to its purpose?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, I think that's a really great question. And I think first of all, I feel like I have to put the caveat in that I'm 29, so I've only been going to Pride for about 10 years.

I can't speak to, you know, over the whole course of our history, but even in the last decade, I even have noticed the increasing commercial aspect of it, which I think on one hand is a positive sign, because it shows that, you know, queer people are more accepted by by larger society these days, and companies are willing to support us and partner with us, which, you know, overall, is a really good thing.

But at the same time, with an increase in, you know, the commercial aspect of it and sponsorships and that kind of thing, especially when it comes to parades and parties, there is kind of a compromise that has to happen where, you know, we we have to appease those sponsors and match the vision that they have for those events.

And I think that that's been a tension that's existed for a while, and something that I've always been kind of suspicious of, and I think a lot of people have been suspicious of, is, well, if the political wind blows a different way, what's going to happen?

And we're seeing that now, you know, across the country in a lot of really large cities with large parades, sponsors that have sponsored for years are suddenly not coming in, and donors suddenly aren't coming in.

And I think that that is a very revealing moment, and kind of has to take us back to our roots of Pride has always been by and for us, and at the end of the day, we keep us safe, you know. And I think that that's definitely something that is at the forefront of a lot of people's minds this year.

And I also think alongside that, you know, it it really speaks to the the people who are still sponsoring and still donating and still, you know, contributing the allies who are showing up for us that matters now more than ever, and for the folks who are still showing up, you know their values are are with us, and we know that now.

And so, I think that, that you know, is maybe a silver lining in this landscape. But I definitely think that this year Pride is is getting back to its roots as it should. You know, I think that it should be equal parts celebration and protest. Pride is all about joy and existence and resistance.

And like I said, it's by us and for us. And I think that this year there will be a renewed focus on that. And I also think, you know, at least, I hope that this year, people do think about more than just the parade and the parties, because there's so many incredible community events that happen in June.

I mean, they happen year-round, but in June, there's especially a lot of really great, more kind of local community events where you can really get in touch with your local community and get plugged in and serve your community.

You know, find out about who needs help and how you can help and how you can advocate, and whether it's, you know, a mutual aid program, or whether it's going and, you know, to a lobbying day for an organization that you care about, or something like that that advocates for the community.

Those are all ways to get involved in Pride in a way that really gives back to the community and also sets us up for success in the future. So, I I'm hopeful that this year, there'll be a renewed focus on on those aspects of Pride as well.

How the LGBTQ+ Community Can Push for Change (38:08)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And throughout this episode, we've talked a lot about the great work that the LGBTQ+ Bar is doing.

So, with all that in mind, what are the most pressing goals for the organization, and how can members of the LGBTQ+ community continue to push for meaningful change in the legal landscape?

Mari Nemec

First and foremost, our goal right now is to support our members through this time of tremendous fear and regression. Like I said earlier, at the end of the day, lawyers are just people.

You know, I think that we do a really good job of seeming like nothing can touch us, and we're here to make a really good argument, but there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of sadness and a lot of anger, and it's a really hard time across the board to be queer, even if you're a kick ass lawyer.

And so, you know, we, we definitely are very focused on supporting our members through this moment, both in terms of just being there for them and also continuing to improve the landscape. We especially, I think, want to affirm that our members belong in the legal profession and they belong in American public life. The legal world is for us. Law schools are for us, and this country is for us.

We all get a piece of it. And I think that that is probably our central goal right now, is making sure that our members are doing okay in this moment. And so, I think a key part of reaching that goal is, you know, as I mentioned before, sharing information, because knowledge is power.

And, you know, we aren't the ones who are arguing the cases. We aren't the ones who are doing the lobbying. So, our role in this is getting that information out and connecting people to, you know, building community, making sure people know they're not alone, connecting people with resources.

You know, if, if attorneys right now do want to get more involved, do want to give back to their community, connecting them with ways to engage in pro bono work. You know, finding pipelines that law students can get plugged into so that they're able to achieve the careers that they want to achieve. 

Things like that, are really important to us right now. And as far as the ways that that LGBTQ+ people can also continue to push for meaningful change, the list goes on and on. There are so many things that you can be doing and and just because I'm so, you know, deeply immersed in the legal world, my mind goes to, you know, what LGBTQ+ lawyers can do right now.

And you know, again, pro bono work is a great thing to do. Go and volunteer at a local LGBTQ+ community center. Get involved in a name change clinic or gender marker change clinic. Mentor local law students, attend Lavender Law. That's a great way to get plugged in.

And then I also, you know, if anybody listening to this podcast has been thinking about law school, or is interested in law school, go. It is so worth it, even if you aren't sure you want to be like a traditional lawyer afterwards. I'm not a traditional lawyer. I have not stepped foot in the courtroom in three years. 

You know, there's so many things you can do with a law degree. And law degrees are really important because they're a tool of immense power and privilege, because you understand how the laws of this country work and how the court system works, and you understand the history of the laws in the court system of this country, and that's so important when you're advocating for the future, because you know the tools, you know the language, you know how the game works, so you're able to play it.

And I think that that's really critical. So that's that's definitely if anybody at this moment is saying, you know, maybe I should go to law school, talk to me, reach out to me. All my information is on the Bar's website, and I would love to help you achieve that goal.

And for, you know, the the non-legal folks out there, I think a lot of the same things apply. It's really important to educate yourself and educate others. Stay informed and stay focused. It's really easy right now. I think to get distracted by the really like alarmist, scary articles coming out, like I mentioned, the ones that are implying that marriage equality is going to disappear tomorrow.

That's not what we need to be worried about right now. So, stay focused on what we do need to be worried about, and get informed about how to protect yourself. And I think it's also really important right now for queer people to be sharing our stories and to be authentically ourselves.

There's a concerted effort to dehumanize us, and I think that's at the root of what we're seeing right now. And the best way to prevent that is to just be open and authentic. It's really hard for people to dehumanize you when they know you.

And so, I think that that's a really powerful tool that we have, that we all can do in various ways, in our daily life.

And I think the last thing that I would say for this is find joy. You know, there's nothing, the best resistance you can have is just remaining joyful and remaining hopeful and embracing your own humanity and not letting them get to you, because you are a valuable and important person, and your queerness is beautiful, and you should embrace it.

And so, I think that that's also really important, even if it sounds a little a little hokey, it really is central to being able to meet this moment.

Rob Loveless

I completely agree. I think finding those moments of queer joy in the face of all this adversity is like the ultimate middle finger to the administration.

I mean, obviously we don't want to lose our rights, but no matter what you do to strip away our rights, like, I'm still going to be here and I'm going to find ways to be joyful, and I'm going to be louder and gayer and, like, really piss you off. You know?

Mari Nemec

Exactly, exactly.

Engaging Allies (43:37)

Rob Loveless

And going off of the piece about, you know, the need to educate others, I was wondering, what can allies do to support the LGBTQ+ community and get involved in advocacy work?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, all of all the things that I just said, I think it's really important. You know, it's very I think is an overused saying, but allyship is a verb. It's not a noun. It's not enough to just read an article and say, oh no, I feel really bad for the queer community.

Get involved, do all of the things that I just said. Educate yourself and others. Stay informed and focused. Go to community events, you know, see what you can do. Check in with LGBTQ+ folks that you know and say, hey, is there anything I can do right now to help?

I think that all of that is really important. And I think it's also important that that LGBTQ+ people remember that we can be allies too.

All of us are allies to somebody, and we know how important allies are to our movement, and we need to be allies to other movements as well, and both within the community and outside of the community. 

You know, we have an incredibly diverse and vast community with people who come from all sorts of experiences and backgrounds who need all of our support. You know, cis queer people can be allies to trans queer people. White queer people can be allies to queer people of color.

Queer people who are American citizens can be allies to queer people who have various immigrant statuses. People who don't have disabilities can be allies to people with disabilities. You know, all of that exists, and it's important for us to be thinking about that too, because we're all stronger together.

You know, we're all, I think, separately being targeted, but it's all part of a concerted effort to target anybody who doesn't match the exact look and style that this administration likes for Americans. And so, it's important that we stand together and protect each other.

Advocate for Equality Year-Round (45:23)

Rob Loveless

As we're wrapping up this conversation, I was wondering, can you give us some advice on how we can all contribute to the ongoing fight for equality and justice, both during Pride month and throughout the rest of the year?

Mari Nemec

I think that the what I keep coming back to lately is authenticity and being authentic in everything. So much of our movement rests on the bravery of folks who unequivocally and unabashedly said, This is me, and even if the space wasn't built to include me, I'm here.

So, what are you going to do about it? And I think that's the attitude we all need to have right now, there's tremendous power in authenticity, because it doesn't give others the ability to ignore us.

You know, like I said, when people know you, it's really hard for them to dehumanize you or dehumanize people who are like you.

And so, I think right now, going into Pride Month and thinking about where we are in the ongoing struggle for for justice and equity, we need to make it really hard for people to ignore us and to excuse the violence being exacted on our community, and the way to do that is authenticity, and I think that authenticity also is important because it paves the way for future generations.

I never would have gone to law school if I didn't see examples of queer people who were absolute rock stars in the legal profession and say, oh, I can do this, you know, like, this is a space for me. I'm not going to feel uncomfortable the whole time, or I'm not going to, you know, miss out on important opportunities.

And while there are still moments where that happens, I mean, obviously, the LGBTQ+ Bar exists for a reason. There's still a lot of work to be done. You know, the more people, the more LGBTQ+ people who are in the legal profession and show younger generations that they can do it too, the more people are going to get into the profession.

So, it's just a chain reaction of improvement. And so, I really would stress to people that the best thing you can do right now to both celebrate yourself, protect yourself, and protect the community, is to be authentic in who you are and in everything you do.

Episode Closing (47:24)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, the Eight of Swords in reverse, again, this card is telling us that we might be holding some limiting beliefs that are causing us from moving forward.

Maybe we're feeling fear, maybe we're feeling overwhelmed. Regardless, these limiting beliefs are causing us to procrastinate, and so we're stuck where we're at.

And as Mari talked about in much of this episode, there has been so many concerns coming at the LGBTQ+ community, and it is really easy to get overwhelmed.

But instead of kind of just succumbing to the gloom and doom, we really need to focus on what's most immediately impacting us. A lot of us fear for what's going to happen with marriage equality.

But like Mari talked about, that's not going away overnight. If that were to happen, it would take years and years to happen.

And obviously, while that is a worst-case scenario, there are things coming up right now that we need to address head-on.

So, instead of letting our fears or concerns consume us, let's try to prioritize what most immediately needs to be dealt with and where we can really lend our talents and raise our voices to create meaningful change.

And again, with Swords being tied to our thoughts, ideas, and how we communicate, I think it really brings us back to the idea of Pride.

Pride began as a protest, and this year, I think we're really seeing our community going back to our roots. It's not just a party anymore where we get to get drunk and have fun.

Instead, we're really using this opportunity to reconnect with the past and really kind of reenergize that activist inside of us to continue to fight for our rights.

And of course, on top of that all, it's really important that we find those moments of queer joy. So, as we're wrapping this up, remember we need to reconnect with our roots.

Find ways to raise our voices and advocate for our community. Really prioritize on those things that are happening right now instead of the worst-case scenario down the road, and also find moments to feel and express queer joy.

Connect with the LGBTQ+ Bar (49:04)

Rob Loveless

And Mari, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for coming on today.

I really appreciate you taking the time to educate all of us about what we need to know, and, more importantly, all the great work you're doing with the LGBTQ+ Bar.

Can you tell the listeners where they can learn more about you, connect with you, and the LGBTQ+ Bar?

Mari Nemec

Yeah, absolutely. Can definitely find us on our website, LGBTQBar.org, that has all the information that you need, both about the programs that we work on and also ways to contact us.

And if you're interested in Lavender Law, you can find more information both on our main website or at LGBTQBar.org/annual, and that should come up as well.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Thank you so much, Mari. I really appreciate this conversation, and all that information will be included in the show notes.

So, once you're done listening, definitely go check out Mari, the LGBTQ+ Bar Association, and find ways that you can get involved.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (49:55)

Rob Loveless

And for the podcast, you know the drill. Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions or feedback about the episode, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

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Mmm-bye.

Outtake (51:24)

Rob Loveless

Well, kicking it right off. You mentioned a little bit earlier, your your work with the National LGBTQ.

Can't speak. See, I told you I have to do the editing all the time.